Rally Grouping?

The only pucka rally Pumas I've ever known were 1.6 and 1.4s due to the classes they entered.


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Dal said:

The only pucka rally Pumas I've ever known were 1.6 and 1.4s due to the classes they entered.


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Yeah same for me... but short of changing the engine, i'm trying to find when 1.7 sits. S1600 ends at 1640cc, the only information that has come close would be slotting into group A.
But im just not sure.

I'll speak to a mate of mine who does rallying. See what he knows about it.

he says its classed in the 1.6-2.0s but is checking excatly what class and such because of valves and other things.

If he hasnt found out before thrusday, i think he meets his rallying mates then, he said to text him.
I'll pm you his number if I dont hear back from him about it, so you can text him.

http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/msa_forms/bluebooks/11/277-320%20Rallying.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is the msa blue book on rallying section.
He said section 49.6.1 might cover it but he is going to find the correct section tomorrow.

Rally class depends on both engine capacity and "state of tune" A 1.7 puma will be in the upto 2l class and its "group" determined by the state of tune this is a rough guide...

A barely modified (on the engine side) Puma would be N3
A Puma modified to the manufacturers group "A" specification would be A7
A puma modified fairly freely but not following set homologation would be B11

If you think that FIA regs are bad wait till you get hold of homolgation papers...

a 1.7l Puma will be up against 2l cars modified to a similiar standard to itself. Although potentially producing far more power.

You are FAR better off either going to a 1.6 engine yourself or doing a 2.0 conversion, the 1.7 is a nice little engine but it would struggle to keep up with some of the 2.0's out there. hence Ford didnt rally that capacity.

As far as requirements go it depends on exactly what sort of rallying you want to do. Stage Rallying is a VERY expensive game. 11 years ago I was leading my class (N1 - showroom engine up to 1400cc) in the British trials and rally drivers association forrest rally championship - at the time it was the most competetive N1 field in the country. We were the second lowest hp and budget in the championship I think just attending the events without car repairs or maintenance was costing close to £10,000 a year! Costs have gone up a lot since those days!

Special stage rallying requires many many costly modifications, roll cages, FIA bucket seats that must be replaced every few years, decent spec fia harnesses, plumbed in fire qxtinguishers as well as hand held ones, various electrical safety bits and pieces, sump guards etc etc.

Thats for Stage Rallying, Roadrallying and other forms of rallying often dont have car classes, but competitor class's where youa re grouped according to experience etc. And if two people come in from the same class with the same result, the higher position is determined first by furthest cleanest, then by engine capacity with the smaller engine winning.

Road Rallying which is all I do these days is really where everyone should start the sport (I started there myself). Its cheap, fun, can be done in any road legal car just about, and you get a grounding in competition pace :lol: Find out about a local motor club and ask them if they run 12 car rally's.

Flying Scotsman said:

Thanks very much... at this point its more the fun of the build and just doing some rallying. Being competative may come later.
I had a look at Team Birkbeck's prices for s1600 parts.... but id need the lottery... lol

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I added stuff to my previous post, might be worth a quick re-read

What you want to start rallying is a standard road car, and a friend whos handy with maps, and then get in contact witha local motor club to find out who runs 12 car rallies and if they would give any guidance to a novice crew. Most Clubs are pretty helpfull to novices. Typical cost for a 12 car is around £35, I pay about £18 an event because I have a rally insurance policy that covers road rallying, and allows pretty much free modifications.

dtq said:

I added stuff to my previous post, might be worth a quick re-read

What you want to start rallying is a standard road car, and a friend whos handy with maps, and then get in contact witha local motor club to find out who runs 12 car rallies and if they would give any guidance to a novice crew. Most Clubs are pretty helpfull to novices. Typical cost for a 12 car is around £35, I pay about £18 an event because I have a rally insurance policy that covers road rallying, and allows pretty much free modifications.

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Exactly what he said ^^^

And once you have done that and if you still want to go for it then you will struggle to be class competetive in a 1.7- hence the reason we are dropping in a 1400 to our build (we felt that if it was a 1600 we would be up against ex works super 1600's). If thats too slow then your other option is something like a 4wd 2ltr build cat2 car and if you think the cost of bits from Birkbecks is expensive......

phil185 said:

dtq said:

I added stuff to my previous post, might be worth a quick re-read

What you want to start rallying is a standard road car, and a friend whos handy with maps, and then get in contact witha local motor club to find out who runs 12 car rallies and if they would give any guidance to a novice crew. Most Clubs are pretty helpfull to novices. Typical cost for a 12 car is around £35, I pay about £18 an event because I have a rally insurance policy that covers road rallying, and allows pretty much free modifications.

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Exactly what he said ^^^

And once you have done that and if you still want to go for it then you will struggle to be class competetive in a 1.7- hence the reason we are dropping in a 1400 to our build (we felt that if it was a 1600 we would be up against ex works super 1600's). If thats too slow then your other option is something like a 4wd 2ltr build cat2 car and if you think the cost of bits from Birkbecks is expensive......

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Phil I know nothing about rallying but a question came to mind.Wouldn't the weight of the puma with a 1400 be a disadvantage. The cars running in the 1400 class must be smaller lighter cars ?
Wouldn't a car like a KA be more competitive in the 1400 class?

Voa said:

phil185 said:

dtq said:

I added stuff to my previous post, might be worth a quick re-read

What you want to start rallying is a standard road car, and a friend whos handy with maps, and then get in contact witha local motor club to find out who runs 12 car rallies and if they would give any guidance to a novice crew. Most Clubs are pretty helpfull to novices. Typical cost for a 12 car is around £35, I pay about £18 an event because I have a rally insurance policy that covers road rallying, and allows pretty much free modifications.

Click to expand...

Exactly what he said ^^^

And once you have done that and if you still want to go for it then you will struggle to be class competetive in a 1.7- hence the reason we are dropping in a 1400 to our build (we felt that if it was a 1600 we would be up against ex works super 1600's). If thats too slow then your other option is something like a 4wd 2ltr build cat2 car and if you think the cost of bits from Birkbecks is expensive......

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Phil I know nothing about rallying but a question came to mind.Wouldn't the weight of the puma with a 1400 be a disadvantage. The cars running in the 1400 class must be smaller lighter cars ?
Wouldn't a car like a KA be more competitive in the 1400 class?

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What you have to remember is that there isnt a "1400 class" Theres 1400 Group N Group A and Group B, for a KA to run a 1400 engine it would have to be in Group B immedeatly removing it from competition for a Group A or A Puma.

A 1300 Group N KA would be an absolute joke performance wise, Leaving the only real possibility a Group A 1300 KA, like the old challenge cars. They arent going to worry a Group A 1.4 Puma too much the old endura engines just arent really up to the job. thats why most of the old KA challenge cars found their 1300 engines dangling on cranes to be replaced with the pumas 1.4 16v engine and moving up to group B once the one make championship ended.

For me the primary consideration is always handling. Power and weight are just a case of optimising what you have rather than being a factor for picking that vehicle. For me it will always be about the feel of the drive. Driver confidance is FAR more important than any specs which you can put on paper. I could never buy a rally car by its specifications.

Ive got my old Road rally KA with ford racing suspension and a lot of money spent on it virtually all new and uprate suspension \ steering components, and it was nowhere near as good as the puma was sitting on its original 140,000 mile old suspension! The KA was fun, it was a good solid base, but the puma was FAR better. Hard to credit given the number of shared components and dimensions.

Thanks dtq for you clear explanation in "layman terms" rallying does seem to be a bit of a black art !!!

Voa said:

Thanks dtq for you clear explanation in "layman terms" rallying does seem to be a bit of a black art !!!

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Rallying has one of the most deceptive public images going, the public perception is very different to the reality. The public get to see cars sliding around at high speed and think its cool or glamorous etc. The reality is the drivers are a bunch of anoraks who love nothing more than to talk about how many teeth there are on the crownwheels and pinions of various diff ratios, or spring ratings. Believe it or not trying to think of ways around the rules as technical as they are is all considered good fun... Hence we have brazilian blocks and swedish post office diffs...

Sometime back in the early 70's just when Rallying was getting fast Stuart Turner mated a train-spotter with an RS2000, the "Rally driver" was born...

A Puma 1.7 would be a B11 which is 1601cc to 2000cc / 2WD / normally aspirated. I run a 1600 in B10.

The obvious problem with a 1.7 is it's up against 2 litre cars in its class. Nothing to stop you though. Single Venues (SVs) are the cheapest sort of Stage Rallies (entry fees ~£150) and don't have so much to hit although are normally tarmac / broken concrete and can put a fair amount of mechnical strain on cars. Good for learning the ropes, racing lines & your car.

Don't get put off by tales of anoraks; there's all sorts - just like life - but they tend to have one thing in common: they actually JFDI. If I had a pound for the number of speccies in Corsas with huge alloys and fartcans who tell me they're planning to start "when they get the money" I'd be driving an Evo by now...

Best way to start is a ready made car TBH. You can usually trace the history through the owner's results and take someone who knows what their doing from a rallying POV.

Flying Scotsman - happy to chat through in more detail: send me a PM. Coincidentally I am reshelling mine soon (after a tree jumped out in front of me) and am not a million miles away from you...

Andrew Hebron said:

If I had a pound for the number of speccies in Corsas with huge alloys and fartcans who tell me they're planning to start "when they get the money" I'd be driving an Evo by now...

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:lol: only your second post and I like you already. :thumbs:

Andrew Hebron said:

A Puma 1.7 would be a B11 which is 1601cc to 2000cc / 2WD / normally aspirated. I run a 1600 in B10.

The obvious problem with a 1.7 is it's up against 2 litre cars in its class. Nothing to stop you though. Single Venues (SVs) are the cheapest sort of Stage Rallies (entry fees ~£150) and don't have so much to hit although are normally tarmac / broken concrete and can put a fair amount of mechnical strain on cars. Good for learning the ropes, racing lines & your car.

Don't get put off by tales of anoraks; there's all sorts - just like life - but they tend to have one thing in common: they actually JFDI. If I had a pound for the number of speccies in Corsas with huge alloys and fartcans who tell me they're planning to start "when they get the money" I'd be driving an Evo by now...

Best way to start is a ready made car TBH. You can usually trace the history through the owner's results and take someone who knows what their doing from a rallying POV.

Flying Scotsman - happy to chat through in more detail: send me a PM. Coincidentally I am reshelling mine soon (after a tree jumped out in front of me) and am not a million miles away from you...

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Didn't realise homologation was out already , my anorak is out of date, haven't done any stage rallying in 10 years :lol:, Just as well Im only road rallying these days. That said it means there's less to be lost by going over to b11 with a duratec lump using the fiesta st gearbox. If you're in group B already...

Buying ready built cars certainly saves a lot of money, no way you can build a car as cheap as you can buy it. That said If I had a £1 for every Mk2 escort Ive seen that's supposed to have 200hp out of its pinto but feels more like 140hp, I'd at least be able to have a good meal out . (probably a situation that's changed Escort prices have rocketed since I was last staging, and I suspect the ancient pinto has fallen out of favour). At a quick count I can recall 11 different Rally cars Ive had now, out of which 2 have been pre-owned, and one built from a bare previously rallied shell, Always happiest in stuff Ive built myself (with help from friends) But then I'm a beggar for replacing bits that don't need replacing as well. for example For my front brake upgrades, I couldn't just buy a pair of mondeo calipers and paint them up and slap them on, I got them blasted, plated, rebuilt with new seals and pistons then painted them up...

To me the planning, building and developing are one of the most fun parts of the hobby... If I had limitless funds I wouldn't be off to m-sport to buy an off the shelf wrc I would be buying up a workshop employing a few friends and buying machinery to build to my own designs Id love to see if some of my more off the wall designs actually worked... Ive spent quite a few hours working out how Im going to wide track the front end within the limits of the standard arches, I think I probably have more fun working out solutions and building than I do driving. I am one of those anoraks :lol:

I would recommend anyone to start with road rallying or 12 cars though, its cheap, easy, quick and a great intro to the sport. and you can do it in your standard road car. You can dip your toes in the water and see what you think for £40 in a car you know and trust already. But then it is horses for courses. Some people like to start navigating for an experienced driver, and then swapping to driving, Others Are either a driver or a navigator. I really couldn't sit next to someone else driving at competition pace. Without a doubt navigating is the cheapest way to do the sport.

dtq said:

To me the planning, building and developing are one of the most fun parts of the hobby... If I had limitless funds I wouldn't be off to m-sport to buy an off the shelf wrc I would be buying up a workshop employing a few friends and buying machinery to build to my own designs Id love to see if some of my more off the wall designs actually worked... Ive spent quite a few hours working out how Im going to wide track the front end within the limits of the standard arches, I think I probably have more fun working out solutions and building than I do driving. I am one of those anoraks :lol:

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I agree - but it's best to have some experience so you know what you like / want / need.

dtq said:

Some people like to start navigating for an experienced driver, and then swapping to driving

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That's what I did. Invaluable.

On another note if you want to get involved before the car is finished there is always marshalling- its a great way to get a feel for how events run.

I stood in the middle of Otterburn ranges last sunday, got soaked, blasted with wind (at least its better than the midgies), had to run up a big hill several times (im not thin or fit!),sunk to my shins in a bog, i was out of the house at 5.30am after a hard week at work but i wouldnt want to be anywhere else!

Phil