Puma 1400 Rally Build

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johnny h
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Re: Puma 1400 Rally Build

Postby johnny h » Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:07 pm

joedeltahf wrote:interesting about the rear springs. I have standard shocks / spring on the rear will fiesta ones fit and be softer?


Sorry , I can't answer that but I would have thought that you would not want to go softer than standard.

The standard suspension is pretty good on the pumas from my experience. It was easy to promote lift off oversteer in my 1700... great fun!
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Re: Puma 1400 Rally Build

Postby Andrew Hebron » Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:53 pm

An update after my test session today on wet and bumpy concrete...my springs are WAY too hard at 40nmm / 228 lb/in on the fronts. Asking around a load of folks including S1600 Saxo, C2s, Corsa etc is that 180 lb/in is closer but am still researching...
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Re: Puma 1400 Rally Build

Postby mrbushrat » Sun Mar 29, 2015 7:57 am

I am getting some springs made up to bumpy tarmac spec hopefully. I will let you know how I get on.
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Re: Puma 1400 Rally Build

Postby Andrew Hebron » Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:07 pm

mrbushrat wrote:I am getting some springs made up to bumpy tarmac spec hopefully. I will let you know how I get on.


What ratings front and rear?
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Re: Puma 1400 Rally Build

Postby johnny h » Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:15 pm

Andrew Hebron wrote:
johnny h wrote:On yours and Graeme's advice I'm going to fit softer springs.


Oh blimey...


Oh no, my new springs have just arrived!

....after our discussion on here and speaking to GAZ, I went for 225 front and 145 rear, both with helper springs.

so do you think that these will still be too hard?

What made you think that your current setup was too hard? how did your car handle?

If it's too hard for tarmac, what are you going to use for gravel?
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Re: Puma 1400 Rally Build

Postby mrbushrat » Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:33 pm

johnny h wrote:
Andrew Hebron wrote:
johnny h wrote:On yours and Graeme's advice I'm going to fit softer springs.


Oh blimey...


Oh no, my new springs have just arrived!

....after our discussion on here and speaking to GAZ, I went for 225 front and 145 rear, both with helper springs.

so do you think that these will still be too hard?

What made you think that your current setup was too hard? how did your car handle?

If it's too hard for tarmac, what are you going to use for gravel?

I think what you have will be ok. I think it depends on what events you are ultimately doing. My 300f and 200r current set up is spot on for croft for Xmas stages and jack frost. But as both my cars are doing mull this year which is rough and bumpy I think I am going same as you rear and slightly softer on the front. How much did they cost from Gaz out of interest with the helper springs?

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Re: Puma 1400 Rally Build

Postby johnny h » Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:54 pm

That's good to know Graeme.

My new springs have got to be better than my originals.

GAZ swapped them FOC as they were unused and they specified the originals and agreed that they weren't ideal.
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Re: Puma 1400 Rally Build

Postby Andrew Hebron » Fri Apr 03, 2015 12:33 am

Johnny - definitely better and glad Gaz 'fessed up! Like I said earlier, I think we're all learning by doing on spring rates at the moment.
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Re: Puma 1400 Rally Build

Postby Andrew Hebron » Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:25 pm

I have news.

I have spoken with Proflex who developed the Puma 1400 Kit Car and Ka Championship suspension with Gywndaf Evans. The springs used were 40 N/mm (228 lb/ft), 300mm (12in) for the fronts and 17 N/mm (97 lb/ft), 340mm (13.5in) for the rears. With Pumas probably a little heavier at the rear, he reckons 20 N/mm (114 lb/ft) or similar is about right.

These were the control springs for the Championships so were used for tarmac and gravel. For super-smooth tarmac you could probably go a little firmer and a little softer for gravel as long as your dampers have enough travel.

The problem I have had on the fronts has been diagnosed to a too short spring so it was sitting on the bumpstops. It gets the car to standard ride height but with the dampers I have, there is not enough travel so I need 12in springs which is why rally Pumas often look quite high.
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Re: Puma 1400 Rally Build

Postby johnny h » Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:19 pm

Thats great info Andrew. It confirms that we are all in the right area.

what ride height do you intend to run for tarmac?

Graeme, what height will you be running?

I have started to put the car back together with the new springs but the fronts have been difficult as I have had to compress the helper springs to get the shock fitted.

Whilst the car was on axle stands I fitted longer wheel studs so that the wheels are more secure, but the fronts were a pain as I had to get the bearings pressed out to fit the new studs.
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Re: Puma 1400 Rally Build

Postby Andrew Hebron » Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:59 am

johnny h wrote:I have started to put the car back together with the new springs but the fronts have been difficult as I have had to compress the helper springs to get the shock fitted.


What rate are the helpers? I'm just using feeble ones @ 4 lb/in as they don't need to do much, so they compress easily.

As far as ride height goes...very high. Turns out I need 12" springs to keep off the bumpstops so it's about 37mm above standard FRP height even with the spring platforms wound right down. It makes any decision simple. Proflex reckon the ride height is just the price Pumas paid for the necessary damper travel for broken concrete / gravel.
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Re: Puma 1400 Rally Build

Postby johnny h » Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:11 pm

Not knowing what the frp ride height is, what is your total height and do you run it with equal front and rear height?
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Re: Puma 1400 Rally Build

Postby Andrew Hebron » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:51 am

here you are: http://workshop-manuals.com/ford/racing_puma_2000.5_01.2000-12.2000/mechanical_repairs/2_chassis/204_suspension/204-00_suspension_system_general_information/specifications/

But I have different coilovers with different measurements / clearances so you'll probably have to do some maths & measurements of your own.
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Re: Puma 1400 Rally Build

Postby joedeltahf » Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:00 pm

i have a full (4) set of hubs with lenghtened studs and 20mm hub centric spacers if you are interested, they are still on the car but i hope to have them off over the coming weeks.
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Re: Puma 1400 Rally Build

Postby phil185 » Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:53 am

Interesting reading about the ride height, when I got our suspension from avo to get it to a reasonable height it was on the bumpstops. Called Avo and Nigel sent out a set of shortened fronts that are a lot better, as it's a Tarmac car it will never need the ride height of the others.

On another note, I have a friend that is looking at going from 17" to 15" wheels, he currently has a load of speedlines (some still have the ford Motorsport stickers on from use in the jwrc). I'm running 15"s so have no use for them, would any of you be interested?

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Re: Puma 1400 Rally Build

Postby mrbushrat » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:54 am

I am using 12" springs but still need to order the softer ones. I have just had to move so I have lost my workshop and garage so I now have all my puma stuff in storage at the moment and everything is on hold. Managed to get the car moted before it went in the garage. Just trying to find a unit but as soon as you mention cars in am being turned away. Few photos below that you may be able to work out the ride height.

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Re: Puma 1400 Rally Build

Postby johnny h » Sun May 17, 2015 11:35 pm

Since getting my softer springs back and fitting them, I've been playing around with the ride heights. Initially I set them at standard FRP height. I then spoke to GAZ who said the travel I'd measured should be okay. I then took it for a blast over the moors and went down a severe dip where the suspension compressed that much that the metal join above the tyres in the upper wheel arches cut a groove into both tyres. Luckily it's not deep enough to cause any damage but I guess any faster and it would have blown both tyres. I've now raised the suspension 10mm and stiffened the suspension a few clicks. I also intend fitting some poly carb against the sharp metal edge above the tyres too.

Few extra jobs on the car which includes setting the steering tracking, fitting an upper brace, sound test (on the limit at 99.5 db ) and a monit computer. Still waiting for the sump guard to be fabricated from November, getting a bit annoyed with them now.

Getting closer now and hoping to do our first event in June :grin:
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Re: Puma 1400 Rally Build

Postby Ziggy » Mon May 18, 2015 1:46 pm

another option is to reprofile the inner arch to remove the seam that is causing the tyre damage - think plasma cutter and welding a low profile filler back in place
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Re: Puma 1400 Rally Build

Postby johnny h » Mon May 18, 2015 9:02 pm

I did think the same thing.

Has anyone on here done it?
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Re: Puma 1400 Rally Build

Postby Ziggy » Wed May 20, 2015 1:38 pm

Probably very common mod on real race / rally cars at a guess
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Re: Puma 1400 Rally Build

Postby tuonokid » Wed May 20, 2015 2:13 pm

Hi Guys, I had to do it on mine to stop my 17" wheels and tyres getting cut up after I lowered it 40mm. An angle grinder will do it and you can go a fair bit if you re-do the spot welds on the bottom chassis rail. It's all on my thread anyway if you want to look.
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Re: Puma 1400 Rally Build

Postby johnny h » Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:16 pm

Thanks for that Barry

I am going to do the same too but I'm going to leave the welding to the pros though.

Is there any reason why the join couldn't be cut and welded flat to the arch to get the greatest clearance?

Great thread btw, you've put a lot of work in.
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Re: Puma 1400 Rally Build

Postby johnny h » Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:25 pm

Registration is now in for our first event....

http://www.warringtondmc.org/90270/info.php?p=5

This is a single venue event at Anglesey circuit on Sunday 21st June


Picked a single venue event to kick off as we have had zero testing so far, so it will give us the opportunity to put it through it's paces and find out if everything is working okay.....including the brakes.

There is also a 1600 puma registered too
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Re: Puma 1400 Rally Build

Postby tuonokid » Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:37 pm

Hi Johnny
Thanks for that. The flange that really hangs down low is only a single sheet of steel thickness but from memory removing this only gives a few mm more clearance. I wanted more than this so I went further which ate into the flanges joining each side of the inner wing and the membrane between them and removed a few of the factory spot welds. So to put strength back into it I partially drilled through the outer flange and plug welded it.
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Re: Puma 1400 Rally Build

Postby mrbushrat » Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:16 am

How did your first rally go?

Graeme
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