Ford Puma 1.7 from 1998 European Emission Standard

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Ford Puma 1.7 from 1998 European Emission Standard

Postby danihxh » Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:21 am

Hi all,

I live in Barcelona and I have a Ford Puma 1.7 from 1998 and a biiiiiiiig problem. The local government here will start banning the most polluting cars some specific high-pollution days first, but permanently later on, in all the metropolitan area, which means not only in the city centre but also in the outskirts areas where I live...

A car is considered too polluting below EURO 3 for petrol and below EURO 4 for diesel. Just in case you are curious to see the official document: http://www.dgt.es/Galerias/seguridad-vi ... 6-3828.pdf

The problem is they already distributed the eco-stickers and I didn't get any, so I wrote them an instance, as I saw in multiple places the Ford Puma is categorised as EURO 3:


However, they told me I need to send them an official document with that information, and in the official technical sheet I have from the car (sorry, I don't know the name of the equivalent thing in UK), that information was not present in 1998. It looks like this one:

Image

Does anyone know if my Puma is actually EURO 2 or 3 and how can I prove it?

Thanks a lot for helping saving my Puma :'(
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Ford Puma 1.7 from 1998 European Emission Standard

Postby zinc2000 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:15 am

http://www.parkers.co.uk/ford/puma/coup ... -3d/specs/

this also lists the spec for the Puma and gives it a euro 3 rating and 178g/km, but not sure how "official" it would be, we all know it is euro 3 but unless you can find a Ford spec list not sure what you can do.
Did they say what they considered "official"
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Ford Puma 1.7 from 1998 European Emission Standard

Postby Dal » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:48 am

There isn't mention of the CO2 levels in the 1997 brochure but there is this from the 2001 version:

2001 Puma brochure.jpg


But as you say, there wasn't that info officially for a '98 car :(
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Ford Puma 1.7 from 1998 European Emission Standard

Postby zinc2000 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:12 pm

Could be of course way back then the road tax was decided on engine size rather than emissions, so does that not apply abroad as well?
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Ford Puma 1.7 from 1998 European Emission Standard

Postby Frank » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:57 pm

danihxh wrote:Source of the post
However, they told me I need to send them an official document with that information

Send in a copy of a current MOT (Inspección Técnica de Vehículos) that shows the CO, THC and NOx emissions.

Below are the emission cut off points for Euro 2,3 and 4 -



Euro 2 (EC96)


Implementation date (new approvals): 1 January 1996

Implementation date (all new registrations): 1 January 1997

Euro 2 reduced the limits for carbon monoxide and the combined limit for unburned hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxide, as well as introducing different levels for petrol and diesel engines.

Euro 2 emissions standards (petrol)

CO: 2.2g/km

HC + NOx: 0.5g/km


Euro 3 (EC2000)

Implementation date (new approvals): 1 January 2000

Implementation date (all new registrations): 1 January 2001

Euro 3 split the hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxide limits for petrol and diesel engines, as well as adding a separate nitrogen oxide limit for diesel vehicles. The warm-up period was removed from the test procedure.

Euro 3 emissions standards (petrol)

CO: 2.3g/km

THC: 0.20g/km

NOx: 0.15g/km


Euro 4 (EC2005)

Implementation date (new approvals): 1 January 2005

Implementation date (all new registrations): 1 January 2006

Euro 4 emissions standards (petrol)

CO: 1.0g/km

THC: 0.10g/km

NOx: 0.08g/km
Last edited by Frank on Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Ford Puma 1.7 from 1998 European Emission Standard

Postby danihxh » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:16 pm

zinc2000 wrote:Source of the post http://www.parkers.co.uk/ford/puma/coup ... -3d/specs/
Did they say what they considered "official"


I'll post exactly what they said once I get back home, I don't have the letter with me now.

zinc2000 wrote:Source of the post Could be of course way back then the road tax was decided on engine size rather than emissions, so does that not apply abroad as well?


The road tax here is still based solely on engine size and the region where you register your car, so sometimes people register theirs in a different place to where they live. It has nothing to do with this thing, which anyway only applies to Barcelona (city centre) and quite a few outskirt regions that adhered to it.

Frank wrote:Source of the post Send in a copy of a current MOT (Inspección Técnica de Vehículos) that shows the CO, THC and NOx emissions.


I'm not sure whether that appears in the last one I have, but I will also check later. Otherwise, I might have to pass it again an specifically ask for it...

For now, I have also sent an email to ford. Waiting for their answer...
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Ford Puma 1.7 from 1998 European Emission Standard

Postby Frank » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:29 pm

You can also point out to them that the EU has always accepted the principle whereby with retrospective legislation it is not always possible to provide contemporaneous official documentation for information that was not required prior to that legislation, i.e. there is no 'Catch 22 situation' and legislators are therefore obliged to accept post-legislative proof/evidence.

So, no 'hunt the thimble' for you, looking for near 20 year old stuff, they are bound by the EU to accept the current official MOT information, providing it shows the information they require.
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Ford Puma 1.7 from 1998 European Emission Standard

Postby Wild E. Coyote » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:30 pm

danihxh wrote:Source of the post Hi all,

Does anyone know if my Puma is actually EURO 2 or 3 and how can I prove it?

Thanks a lot for helping saving my Puma :'(


The easiest way for you to confirm the emission class of your puma is to look under the hood. One lambda model is Euro2, twin lambda model is Euro3.
The other way of confirmation: have a look at your PCM. Only DIVE is Euro3 compliant (all applies only to 1.7 model). TAPE, MUFF and DUDE are all Euro2.

Now, official: you should contact Ford Espana (again, under presumption there is Ford office in Spain or the local importer if there is one) and ask them to issue you COC (Certificate of Conformation) for your VIN. In COC there is clearly stated emission standard of the vehicle (among all the other information for your vehicle). That is official document valid across EU.

Also, you can punch your VIN in ford.etis.com to see all the information about your car, and there is stated emission standard as well.
However, having said it is 1998. model almost certainly it is Euro2 model...
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Ford Puma 1.7 from 1998 European Emission Standard

Postby Frank » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:39 pm

Wild E. Coyote wrote:Source of the post
However, having said it is 1998. model almost certainly it is Euro2 model...

Nope, it would state that is was a Euro 2 model, because unless they were doing a 'Back To the Future' thing then they would have no way of knowing the future standards/legislation on anything. That's why I didn't mention Etis.

However, when you actually measure the emission figures on a Puma (including the early ones) they fall into the Euro 3 zone. Even bureaucrats have to accept reality at times, however inconvenient that may be for their tidy minds. ;)
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Ford Puma 1.7 from 1998 European Emission Standard

Postby Wild E. Coyote » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:10 am

Frank, I admire your spirit. However, I am affraid only the paper counts. I know how they emission test here: they plug it in and check whether it COMPLIES with STATED emission standard. They just check good or not good. No mention of the ACTUAL emissions from the car. So, if the car is homologated as Euro2 vehicle (there is a sticker for the windshield saying which class it is) it will still be classed as Euro2, even if it actually is good enough for Euro3 standard.

And, BTW, they did know in 1998. what the Euro3 was going to look like being just 2 years away from obligatory implementation. They actively work on emission standards and have 3 teams doing R&D: the worst case scenario, the most likely scenario and the best scenario (seen from perspective of a car manufacturer). Needless to say the aim is to be compliant with the least expensive solution....
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Ford Puma 1.7 from 1998 European Emission Standard

Postby danihxh » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:54 am

zinc2000 wrote:Source of the post Did they say what they considered "official"


They say "...official documentation of the vehicle and any other that you consider appropriate, such as modification of the spec sheet by MOT, certificate from the manufacturer, etc". Sorry if the translation is not too accurate... UU'

Frank wrote:Source of the post Send in a copy of a current MOT (Inspección Técnica de Vehículos) that shows the CO, THC and NOx emissions.


I have just checked this and the only information that shows up here is CO idle: 0,10%, CO reving: 0,10%, Lambda: 1,017, so I guess not what I need.

On the other hand, I took a look at Wurth Wow 2016 and it doesn't mention anything about EURO II or EURO III, but it has some emissions data:

  • CO idle: max 0,5%
  • HC idle: 100 ppm
  • CO2 idle: 14,5 - 16%
  • O2 idle: 0,1 - 0,5%
  • CO reving: + 0,3%
  • Lambda: 0,98 - 1,02

But again, not what I was looking for...

However, something I might be able to use as an argument is that the Ford Puma appears as a single model in there, from 1997 to 2002, so that should mean nothing relevant changed from one to the others :-P

Anyway, I got an answer from Ford and they say I need to go to an authorized repairer and get a homologation certificate. When I called to one of them I was being told to call today to a specific center where they might be able to inform me about that, so I will call later today and see what they tell me...
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Postby danihxh » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:52 am

Just talked to Ford on the phone and they say the might be able to provide me the emissions certificate I need for the car! Yay!

I have to send them some documentation of the car first so that they can check if it's actually possible for me to get the EURO III, and if it is, just pay 135€ + IVA (VAT) and that's it! Not too bad considering there are some other more expensive things for the Puma I might spend money on if I know I'll be able to keep it for some more years :D

Anyway, while they check if it's actually possible to get the EURO III certificate, I'll try to get back to DGT (the organism that grants the emission stickers that says which cars are too polluting and which aren't) without that and give them some other arguments to see if I finally get the sticker without having to pay for the certificate :-P
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Ford Puma 1.7 from 1998 European Emission Standard

Postby zinc2000 » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:52 pm

:thumbs: go the free route if you can, fail to see why you should have to pay to prove anything..good luck
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Postby danihxh » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:41 pm

Bad news.. Got an official answer from Ford and they say it's NOT possible to homologate a MHA engine as Euro 3.

Moreover, next month they will start restricting traffic in Barcelona, so I won't even be allowed to use my car for a few days to go to work until the pollution levels go down. In 2020 I won't be allowed to use it under any circumstance, even if pollution levels are low.

I'm currently looking for alternative solutions, maybe installing LPG, but I think under Spanish legislation, pre-Euro 3 cars can't be homologated as ECO anyway (the category that is granted to cars running on LPG).

I'm already thinking of some other real alternatives, but I think a don't have many... From greenest to more polluting:
  • Full-Remove Job: I could keep the Puma as the restrictions do not apply to my area and I would save a massive amount of time and money (gas, renting a private parking spot for weekdays, public parking occasionally...). Anyway, finding a new job takes quite a bit of time and effort.
  • Bike: Not an option as I live on the outskirts. Also, have you tried cycling to work in summer in Spain...?
  • Public transport: Brokes down regularly and it's too crowded in rush hours, they just try to fit as many people as possible in a single train to make more money from it and rarely renew them. I just don't like that nor want to give them any money for the shitty service they offer... Moreover, I usually carry two bags (gym and laptop), so sometimes it's not even possible for me to fit in there without knocking someone down... Not ideal :\
  • Motorbike: Not really into that, too dangerous for me hahaha
  • Renault Twizzy: Too expensive for what it offers and too slow. No chargers available near the office, and the parking spot I rent is private, so no chance to have it installed there. No aircon, so again, not an option in summer. At least it looks cool and fun to drive to me.
  • Renault Zoe (and any other electric cars currently available that are not supercars): All the above but much more expensive. Would have aircon though, but not cool at all. No coupes available.
  • Fiat 500 (or similar): Could be an option to go to work, but I still want to have a coupe, so at some point I'd like to buy a new sportier car anyway. This option doesn't really convince me...
  • Mazda MX5 RF/Subaru BRZ: Looks like the best alternatives to a Puma until decent electric ones (small coupes) are available and "affordable". The new Tesla Roadster looks quite promising, even at $50K it doesn't look that much compared to these two if we keep in mind maintenance and owning costs, but we would still have to wait a couple of years at least... Regarding emissions, those cars produce less NOx but more or similar CO2 than the Puma, so it doesn't make too much sense to change it as I do less than 10K km per year, and I would be scrapping a car with around half its life left still.

I think the best option is looking for a remote job, which would also give me a lot more time for myself, and keeping the Puma for now. Once the new Skyactive-X MX5 are there I will decide if I want to go for one of them or wait for Tesla and then give the Puma a proper retirement as a classic after so many years of service hahaha

Any other ideas? What do people do in London about the congestion area?
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Ford Puma 1.7 from 1998 European Emission Standard

Postby red » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:15 pm

People 'in' London hardly bother owning cars and people on the outskirts use public transport for work, the mainlines in to the city are quite frequent. My company have an office in London and I've never driven to it, granted I dont do it every day but it usually works out more cost effective over the year once you take in to account fuel, insurance, parking etc.

Maybe you could but a later Puma? :grin:
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