2.1 Zetec Turbo - The Yella' Fella' (Videos and Dyno pg7)

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2.1 Zetec Turbo - The Yella' Fella' (Videos and Dyno pg7)

Postby PumaNoob » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:17 pm

Don't you dare Dave!! :evil:
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Postby Davedrave » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:20 pm

But just had so many issues with the car I feel like I haven't been able to enjoy it at all in the last 2 years.. And the Mk3 RS is absolutely mental.

Like I said only testing the water here!! :ok:

How are you anyway mate haven't heard from you in a while? Hope things are well.
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Postby PumaNoob » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:28 pm

It would be a big mistake to sell this car, you have put so much time, money, & effort into it, it's just the niggles that you need to sort now. I'll sort your reverse light and speedo, don't worry about those.

And my opinion may be way off, but I really couldn't see anyone paying even half of what that car has cost to build. I have never seen a puma with that level of mods for sale, but there was a mental FRP with a similar set up, but had a sequential gearbox with roll cage and alloy tank in the boot, I'm sure that was up for £12k, might have been a bit less.
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Postby moondustka » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:35 pm

Yup, sad to say, they just aren't worth anywhere near what we put into them. I reckon I'd be lucky to get £10k for mine after engine is back.

Not sure if you are, but if you're still struggling with a safe haven for your car why not try Torque Developements in Thurrock, they aren't that far from you are they? It's where I've been going for the past 5-6 years. They will definitely be able to sort your running issues provided all hardware is ok.

Don't give up on it. I'll tell you now your Puma is faster than a Mk3 RS once moving.
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2.1 Zetec Turbo - The Yella' Fella' (Videos and Dyno pg7)

Postby Davedrave » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:36 pm

We have managed to fix the reversing light, just the speedo to go now. Get it all running right and then I think I will finally be able to enjoy it.. Been away from the fast ford scene for so long and barely driven the car since ford fair last year its just so demoralising but I guess the end is in sight! You guys have put me back in my place which is why I posted the question in the first place, I don't want to sell the Yella Fella, far too much history with it and far too many plans for it in the future!

We have now found a mechanic who lives near us who has sorted the car out, would rather not say who but we are incredibly happy with the level of communication and the quality of work carried out so far. With regards to mapping, it will still go back to Redline Tuning as have had no issues with them whatsoever and Rich knows his stuff. Thanks for the recommendation anyway!

Sequential gearbox sounds interesting..
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Postby PumaNoob » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:48 pm

Good man, we all have those moment where you doubt what you are doing when things aren't going great. I've had my fair share of knock downs with my car, but with the support of the puma community and friends, I can honestly say hand on heart, I don't regret a moment of the time, money, or effort I've spent on my car.

It will be worth it when that Subaru, or BMW or VXR tries it on and gets an ass whooping for their troubles! :lol:
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Postby Davedrave » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:55 pm

Yeah I guess you're absolutely right! Had some lengthy discussions with my son about selling it and we both couldn't stomach seeing the car go so it's definitely going to stay! Will message you soon when the car is running properly when we can organise getting the speedo all up and running if thats cool with you?

On a side note then, just as some pure petrolhead talk.. Would like to do a 4WD conversion on the puma in the future, it is something I have always wanted to do. Undecided on what route to go down and would like some opinions on what setup people think is best. Would it be worth going down the cosworth engine and drivetrain route and using a heavy duty MT75 gearbox or would it be worth keeping the zetec engine? Would want a reliable 450+ bhp from the engine. This is all new stuff to me so any info is totally welcome if there is anyone out there with some knowledge!
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Postby moondustka » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:07 am

With the work that you've already gone through Dave, I reckon a Evo 4x4 transmission would work. The old MT75 box and running gear is quite old now and isn't a very efficient 4wd system. I think the Evo box shares the same top half bolt pattern too? Someone may correct me on that.

Will you make Ford Fair again this year?
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Postby Davedrave » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:14 am

Have thought about that before.. Perhaps start off by trying to get my hands on one of the WRC engine blocks - forgotten the name of them now. Keep the turbo setup that I have and sort out whatever else needs doing to take it to 450/500 bhp and then use an EVO gearbox setup.. Sounds very lovely. Would also want to probably do a space frame front end to reduce some of the weight over the front wheels, large alloy tank in the boot, probably a roll cage too with that much power haha. S1600 bodykit of course. I just know nothing about all the drivetrain setup, whether or not we would need a gearkit for that much power etc etc. I'd love a sequential box just really hate the noise of the bloody things.

I'd love to say we'll be there but I honestly just don't know if the car will be ready in time.. Might keep it a surprise from you all 8-)
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Postby moondustka » Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:33 am

I'd need to win the lottery for that list! :lol:

It's a CGI block that they use for WRC :wink: .. Compacted graphite iron. They are meant to be stronger, they also have some weight taken off them. But to be honest, there's nothing wrong with the standard blocks at 500hp even.

The noise from those types of gearboxes comes from the fact they are fitted with straight cut gears, they whine as they mesh together. Helical gears, which is what all production cars have are curved and this reduces all that noise. Apparently a straight cut gearset and sequential box is not fun to drive on the road, I've heard from a few guys I know. It's an effort, and only good when you've got your foot planted.

Make sure you get a pass for For Fair just in case!
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Postby TGPlayer1 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:33 pm

Saw a mk2 Escort at a show with a straight cut box, looked to be a full rally set up anyway, it jumped every time he engaged first and it whined massively even at sub 10mph.

But everybody was creaming at it because it was so awesome :lol:
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Postby Davedrave » Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:09 am

Thats why I'll be passing it onto my son to be carrying out the rest of the list of jobs! :grin:

Thanks for that, I've looked into them before, I'm just not sure what other supporting mods needs to be done to get a reliable 450/500 power from the zetec. I know my turbo setup and rather sexy inlet manifold will run it perfectly. Dry/Wet sump needed? Whatever the difference is..

I think I will forget the sequential box route, just need a strong 4WD box. Any particular reason the EVO is better than cossie running gear?

If money was no object.... Imagine putting the Mk3 RS lump and drivetrain in the puma :P
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Postby McCloud 85 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:49 pm

I can possibly lend some helping hand with the cosworth setup on this one, it's been a steep learning curve for me since I've been messing around with it!

The MT75 box and associated transmission is a very very old design now, developed in the mid-late 80's the technology is approaching 30 years old. There is nothing really wrong with it other than it is big, chunky and the gearbox does not like anything above 350bhp/lbft. That is what people claim when it's fitted to the escorts & sierras, fitted in a lighter car it will do more. It basically rips apart between 2nd/3rd usually.

It also means you have to mount the engine 'inline' and not transverse like traditional to the puma and Evo, which is why Ben is suggesting the Evo route. It's a smaller transmission meaning you won't have to cut an enormous tunnel into the car and stronger and more modern. It will feel like a more modern car. The MT75 box is like changing gear on a tractor, it feels very agricultural.

That said there are many options available to upgrade the MT75 to make it stronger and better. But it's usually in the thousands. You then have a rear diff to upgrade at some point.

I am yet to start pushing mine, I still need to fit the strengthening plate in the front diff and get a spare MT75 box built up with shot peened gears and perhaps super finished gears too, I'm told this will be enough. I'm just driving carefully malign sure I don't stress the transmission too much at the moment. Still having fun though!

Whatever you decide, it's either massive amounts of work, or one very big bill. Either way if you want something different it's the only way to go!
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Postby moondustka » Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:56 pm

Davedrave wrote:Source of the postIf money was no object.... Imagine putting the Mk3 RS lump and drivetrain in the puma :P



The thought has crossed my mind too! :grin:
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Postby Davedrave » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:16 pm

I think we will definitely go down the EVO route then, just tricky knowing whether or not what parts needed to upgrade with regards to the drivetrain etc. I'll take it to MDVse to carry out all the work on the car, they will do all the fabrication and all the work needed for conversion and upgrades. Soooooo many plans just need the funds!

I wonder if the easiest route would actually be the Mk3 RS route? Haven't seen any gearboxes/engines for sale though but they've only just come out.

Lovely to be back on here talking cars and parts with some serious petrolheads, I've definitely missed this community
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Postby McCloud 85 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:53 pm

With that 'drift' button in the mk3 rs it's only a matter of time before a few low milage written off cars start to get broken for parts. A real shame but it will happen! That would be a very interesting conversion.
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Postby McCloud 85 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:54 pm

Having said that the cheaper route would be your current engine with the Evo set up and that would be just as good.. Probably.
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Postby Davedrave » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:57 pm

What makes you say the EVO route is cheaper?

Would be good fun as I have heard nothing buy outstanding reviews about how good it is and I know someone who now has a Mk3 RS and had a 536bhp EVO 5 and he said the RS handles much better.. Plus you get to keep all of the purists happy that its only ford parts been used in the conversion. Myself, I'm not so bothered and as its my car I guess my opinion is all that matters but it would be nice to have everything all Ford.

Its definitely a conversion I'm interested in and will be considering when the time is right.
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Postby McCloud 85 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:48 pm

Purely on a parts basis. The Evo running gear will be cheaper to buy than the new rs stuff of which you will also have to buy the engine, although not necessarily. I'm assuming of course the fab work is a similar cost for both.

Remember just because a setup doesn't handle well in one car doesn't mean when transplanted into another shell it can't be totally didferent. The rear shocks on my car are in a totally different location to standard puma or atabdard escort/Sierra. The cosworth rear beam/arms has a really poor geometry setup as standard and I'm wondering whether when the car was built this was done to combat some of this. It's something that I need to get around to investigated a little more.

I do know what you mean with an all ford setup though.
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Postby Davedrave » Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:00 am

Thats fair enough, I had a feeling it would be cheaper to buy just not really sure where to look for parts. Like with all the mods I've had done to the car I've known the names for parts e.g. MTX75 box etc, its all alien to me!

Do you know much about the EVO box? I've been reading up trying to get myself a bit more knowledgeable about all that stuff. From what I can see the 5 speed is better than the 6 speed for whatever reason - if anyone knows would love to find out. Also, apparently an RS rear diff is good for well over 600bhp, not sure why and I don't even know what goes into it all in terms of diffs etc.

I guess I would probably have to use EVO suspension setup as well perhaps? I'm not entirely sure but I know MDVse have done a RWD converted Focus RS with a cossie lump in it and they fabricated some kind of cradle for the rear diff, looks awesome so would probably go down a similar route with them.

Also wondering would it be easier to build the car with the 4G63 engine as well - depends on the difference in efficiency and drivability of a 500bhp EVO engine vs a 500bhp Zetec.
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Postby moondustka » Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:28 am

I've heard EVO engines are bit like chocolate.. Which by comparison, the Zetec engine isn't!

And yes you would need the whole rear suspension setup from whichever transmission you choose, really. This would mean all new fabrication to the floor, as well as new exhaust.
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Postby McCloud 85 » Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:00 am

So this is the point at which my knowledge on the Evo stuff ends! I have never looked into it in much depth. I know the system is quite compact and so great for fitting into other cars as not much salve needs to be found. It is still likely to need a chbage in steering rack and he puma sub frame will be extensively cut about or removed completely which will mean the front wheels will need to be 're-tied' to the car using new fabricated wishbones.

Anything is possible and anything can be made so you can mix and match any part with any car. So in suspension terms you can use whatever you fancy, you'll just have to have mounts and possibly collars made to suit.

What I don't know is at what power the transmission can take. But I would expect to pay around 2-3 grand for Evo stuff and 10+ grand for the new rs stuff!!
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Postby McCloud 85 » Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:11 am

I'm not sure where you've heard that the rs diff can take 600bhp. In standard form it's a bit hit and miss. There are several different versions of it but most people start upgrading them around 500bhp if not before.

500bhp is a lot of power. At that level I would be looking at other areas to be improve to get the best out of that power before going higher. Sequential boxes, advanced geometry, road legal slick tyres are a few of the options available to make a very impressive and extremely fast car.
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Postby Wild E. Coyote » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:59 am

If I may add my 2 pennies. With that sort of power (450-500 bhp) I would seriusly take a look at puma shell. It is soft and it will twist at that torque. I would, for starters, reinforce all the welds and add quite a few of them (remember the body need some flexing so you need to leave some parts as they are. I would go for 10-10 pattern; 10 cms of continuos weld, 10 cms without) and onlhy after that would start messing around with suspension setup etc...
There is no point in having the smartest suspension geometry if your bodywork is flexing and negating all the work on suspension...
Just my 2p
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Postby Davedrave » Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:44 pm

Great feedback from everyone thanks very much from jumping in. Really appreciate it as its not something I have a massive amount of knowledge about! Waiting for Errol to pop in and give us all some mind blowing info as usual.

Will probably end up sticking with the Zetec engine instead of changing over to the 4G63, happy with it as it stands could just do with some more power if its going 4WD! I guess we'll look into using the suspension setup from the EVO as well then. With regards to the rear diff, its just something that I've read that they are fairly strong but I don't know much and will definitely be looking into it all to find out what sort of upgrades to the transmission we will need to do.

You of course may add your 2 pennies, thats what the forum is there for! When it all goes ahead I will have the car stripped right back to the shell and have it fully treated for any kind of rust that may be underlying, will also have it strengthened and a roll cage put in as well. If anyone else has any points they wish to add then feel free! It will be going ahead, not anytime soon but will be nice to have a plan in place first.
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