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Postby Wild E. Coyote » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:40 am

Hi guys, some smallish update(s).

First regarding the pads. Now I am almost 100% certain that inside Ford box is Ate. They behave exactly the same. Nice stopping power, no noise at all, rather soft and producing dust. The discs are not wearing down at all, the pads are. For everyday usage I think they are just about the best they could be, but ask for rather regular alloy cleaning. So that conludes the brakes.

Now, moving onto derusting. On advice from here, got myself a bottle of this magic powder.

Image

You dissolve it in water, prefferably hot (the hotter the better, so it says on the sticker adding that if you have submerged heater it speeds up process dramatically, end of quote) and just put in the things you want derusting.

Unfortuntaley, haven't taken images of the sump bolts before, but I guess all of you can imagine how they looked. If you can't, take a look under your car; we are all in the same boat there).

Anyway, put the bolts in a cup of deoxC for about 20 minutes

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Sure thing, it sturts bubbling after a minute or so and the liquid gets darker by minute.

After 20 minutes the results:
Image

I used some old toothbursh just to clean them and they look incredibly new(ish). Cleaned them with brake cleaner and then sprayed WD40 and that was it. This stuff really is amazing!

(on a sidenote: Ford really didn't spare on sealant for the sump as all the bolts were full of it and had to run them all through some tap to clean the threads)

Thah conludes derusting. Someone here mentioned idea of pool big enough to put the shell in it: a really tempting idea!

Onto the engine. As you know, I found which big end gearings fit in, but all of them location lugs on the right side, and original bearings have it on the left. First thought of adapting the bearing to fit in the big end as it is, but couldn't persuade myself it is safe to file away a part of location lug as that could lead to bearing spinning and dislodging from the big end of the conrod. So having had a look at the other overhaul of 1.7 engine in FRP section went to one of our best machining companies specialized in engines, brought the conrods and the Glyco bearings and explained what was the problem. It turned out it wasn't a problem at all, as they are used to it and did it in 5 minutes while I was waiting. The price: 5 GBP! Not kidding,5 GBP!
They advised, and I see the logic, to do it on the other side of conrod to keep the original intact; if I ever get somehow original shells, they can be put in without problems.

So, they did it like this. Simple grinding that anyone can do at home with a dremel, I suppose. No need for big machining center, or anything.

Image

The other side is kept as it was

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And the conrod side
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This was all done using Glyco aftermarket set of standard size bearings. I have them, but still don't know what is the radial clearance as I, most annoyingly, don't have a 12 sided 8 socket to be able to torque down the conrod bolts properly and to check it with plastigauge!
But, a friend of mine is working at Suzuki and he had a look through their system (the bearings for Suzuki 1.3 engine are EXACT match in OD/ID and width (16 mm) and, this is important stuff, you can get them in 5 classes as is norm!

Image

I am still waiting on his return information for the guidance on the usage of the bearings (which is to be used for which journal OD) and that negates the need for machining the crankshaft to make it suitable for the aftermarket bearings as is the norm.

When I get the information, I will post it here. You can already see from that screen capture that the engine in question is from Jimny (also Liana and Swift). That makes service of bottom end not only doable (drop dead you bean counters at Ford and your greed) but a matter of routine work.

And finally some more investigation on gearbox swap (IB5 for B6). I have to apologise for chasing few projects in paralel as that makes following rather problematic, I suppose, but as do it on weekends only, I have to do few things at the same time!

I don't like the idea of putting the ST180 gearstick in puma interiror as it simply doesn't fit (esthetically). So I got myslef a gearstick handle from focus ST170. Similar styling, aluminum.

Firstly, the shaft of gearshifter is the same in OD and the thread is the same. The ST170 gearstick handle screws nicely on the shifter shaft :grin:
The gearstick handle I got from eBay was used and worn a bit and had one rather visible scratch. Took some sand paper with intention of clearing it and started with 180 thinking that would go up until making it nice and shiney. But, during th initial sanding realized it looked aces in this scratched look and just kept on like that!
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Out of garage on daylight

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And on the shifter stick
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If you wonder why I just don't put on the ball from puma, it is the reverse mechanism. IB5 uses reverse down on the right, below 5th gear, on B6 it is front, left to the 1st gear.

So the markings would be wrong (lesser problem, not functional, but that would bother me) and the gearshifter uses a brake for accidental engaging reverse. It is simple plastic part that is connected to the ring you pull up when selecting reverse. That enables the stick to go further to the left and that engages reverse on one of the cables. All of that is part of the gaitor (image taken from below)
Image

The ST170 is to long, but has the lower part of the shaft taht I don't need so will machine it off.
Image

Then the lower ring will be able to go up and enable selection of the reverse. Will see how that goes; if it doesn't work out as intended, might even make a complete new shifter to the required spec, or, alternatively, take only the required part of reverse brake and connect it to the gearstick handle...

On a different note, had a look at driveshafts and compared the puma and ST180 ones.
Image


The outer shafts look almost identical in length, but the intermedite shaft is longer. I suspect that the diff in B6 gearbox is further to the left (looking ahead) than in IB5 which has 5th gear and reverse AFTER diff and that it should fit (as the 1.6 ecoboost is same cylinder spacing as in all sigma engines making the block equal in length. When I finally put together the (re)new(ed) engine, will bolt provsionally the B6 gearbox and check the situation regardind the intermediate shaft. I think that will check out fine, but the other, short driveshaft, will most probably be to long by the same ammount as the intermediate is longer comparing to the regular puma shaft. That might be good news for FRP owners as the shafts might be spot on for their cars
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Postby g-whizz » Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:47 pm

Hi Sinisa,
Always in awe of the level of skill involved here.... which makes me all the more tickled pink you've given the Deox C a go too! I'm still looking for a neighbour with a pool to drop the shell in :wink: but Bilt do a gel version of the powder which you can coat surfaces in if you need it?
Cheers,
Greg.
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Postby tuonokid » Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:30 pm

Awesome Sinisa, can't wait till you get the gearbox up and running in the car.
Barry
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Postby Wild E. Coyote » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:15 pm

g-whizz wrote:Source of the post Hi Sinisa,
Always in awe of the level of skill involved here.... which makes me all the more tickled pink you've given the Deox C a go too! I'm still looking for a neighbour with a pool to drop the shell in :wink: but Bilt do a gel version of the powder which you can coat surfaces in if you need it?
Cheers,
Greg.


Yes, I discovered there was a gel version as well, but I couldn't get it shipped here as it is classed as chemical shipment that is dangerous. I am more than satisfied with the water solution for the time being!
Cheers for the tip, Greg!
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Postby Wild E. Coyote » Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:34 pm

Did some investigation on my engine. The bearings from Suzuki are OK-ish, but the problem is the starting dimensions. Suzuki did his crankshaft at 42.000 mm flat. Ford did his at 41.985 mm. The other thing is that Suzuki shell is 1.49 mm thick, Ford did shell at 1.505 or more. So the gap is to big. It is just on limit, or sligthly over it.

Image

So put the pistons back in the block.

Torqued the big ends to 21 Nm and then added 45 degrees as Ford said it should be done
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Prior to that put in the plastigauge.
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It is very simple and very effective system for measuring the gap
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After torquing it to the spec, dismantled it and had a look at the marking.
It leaves the marking from the vax that gets squashed in. The larger the imprint, less of a gap there is. In the package is also the measuring for a readout.
Image

Image

Image

Image

All the big ends have a gap of 0.05 mm or slighlty more. That means I need +0.25 sized bearings and then it would be spot on 0.025 mm as is the specified by Ford (0.023 - 0.045 mm).

So the engine will have to be apart for a few more days, but when reassembled it will be spot on
3 x

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Postby Wild E. Coyote » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:45 pm

Dear all,

I am very pleased to inform you all that I have discovered AND TRIED the complete solution that makes bottom end of our beloved 1.7 engine completely serviceable! So it goes like this: the main bearings will last over 500.000 kms no problem if you regularly change oil. That is so thanks to the engine being so well built and balanced (as said previously, all piston conrod combos are within 1 gram). If they fail, Glyco does the main bearings for 1.6 engine and they are the same.
The problem is the big end. Or, it WAS. As I have already posted, the bearings for Mitsubishi G13/G15 4G12 engine do fit. However, they are wide 17.3 mm, puma bearings are wide 16 mm. In it self it shouldn't be a problem but still is not exactly the same.
So I did some digging around and found out that bearings from suzuki ignis/swift are exactly the same at 42/45 mm x 16 mm. Now it gets interesting: I did try the Glyco bearings for that engine above and the gap was to big. Ford says the radial gap should be between .023 and 0.045 mm and you can see images above that it is slightly over .05 mm. Most probably the engine would operate fine, but since I want this engine to be as good as new, didn't want put together something that wasn't within specs.
A very good friend of mine is working at Suzuki so I asked him for the specs for the engine and he was kind enough to send me the service file.
And here it is:
Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

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It is worth noting that Suzuki did his engine to similar standard as Yamaha did Sigma for Ford: The clearance (gap) is .029 - .049 mm on Suzuki engine. However, Suzuki got its crankshaft at 42.000 mm dead, where as Ford (Yamaha) did it at 41.99 to 41.985 mm. Hence the nominal bearings are a bit to thin as my previous images prove.However, Suzuki is kind enough to offer the bearings in five classes of thickness.The service information gives the procedure of selecting the proper bearing colour depending on the bigend/shaft diameter but since we are ging to adapt it for our engine we can only rely on the dimensions.
Ford states that big end diameter is from 45.025-45.045 mm what puts us right away in the class 3 of big end for Suzuki as it is more then Suzuki even offered for its engines (note how tight tolerances are on Suzuki engine!).

When taken into account the big end and shaft diameter of 41.985 mm it gives us the combo of C3 in the table and selecting the thickest bearing coded in blue colour.

This is what you need
Image

Image

Tried it on my 4th cylinder big end which was the worst in terms of radial gap and this is the result:

Image

The gap is now .038 mm what sits nicely in the spec of the engine.
So, my advice for the bearing selection would be as follows: if your bearings in the engine are either red or black in colour code, you should go for the blue suzuki bearings and that would work fine and bring the gap back to the specs.

That makes bottom end of 1.7 engine normally serviceable and could save few of these brilliant engines I hope...
6 x

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Postby Brian' » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:58 pm

Awesome information detective Sinisa! :grin:
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Postby XAF » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:40 pm

You sir deserve a medal! I'm gonna buy me a set of those before Suzuki run out!
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Postby TylerB » Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:11 pm

Very interesting read! :wink:
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Postby g-whizz » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:25 pm

...Much applause deserved, well done Sinisa for finally proving it can be done :ok:
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Postby siju » Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:51 am

Well done Sinia.

Just for reference though I have some big end bearings from LMS (which are KING brand IIRC) which are supposed to be heavy duty. The problem is I haven't try to install them to see the gap but LMS sells them as suitable for 1.7
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Postby Wild E. Coyote » Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:55 am

XAF wrote:Source of the post I'm gonna buy me a set of those before Suzuki run out!


I don't think there is a danger it could happen. They had them on stock in Hungary (there they produce cars) and they arrived within two days. Of course, bear in mind, a set consists of just one pair (you can see the 4 boxes pictured)
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Postby Wild E. Coyote » Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:57 am

siju wrote:Source of the post Well done Sinia.

Just for reference though I have some big end bearings from LMS (which are KING brand IIRC) which are supposed to be heavy duty. The problem is I haven't try to install them to see the gap but LMS sells them as suitable for 1.7


Really couldn't comment on that as I am unaware of what is in the box LMS is selling... Having seen your signature, it states you have 1.4 model. It is worth noting that all of the catalogues make an assumption that big ends are the same across Sigma engine family and that is not true! All the other engines have bigger big end compared to 1.7 which is the only one at 42/45 mm. If you have caliper gauge measure the outside dimensions of the bearings you have; if they are not 45 mm OD, they won't fit
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Postby siju » Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:26 pm

Wild E. Coyote wrote:Source of the post
siju wrote:Source of the post Well done Sinia.

Just for reference though I have some big end bearings from LMS (which are KING brand IIRC) which are supposed to be heavy duty. The problem is I haven't try to install them to see the gap but LMS sells them as suitable for 1.7


Really couldn't comment on that as I am unaware of what is in the box LMS is selling... Having seen your signature, it states you have 1.4 model. It is worth noting that all of the catalogues make an assumption that big ends are the same across Sigma engine family and that is not true! All the other engines have bigger big end compared to 1.7 which is the only one at 42/45 mm. If you have caliper gauge measure the outside dimensions of the bearings you have; if they are not 45 mm OD, they won't fit


I have to change the signature. I have changed the engine to 1.7. When I prepared the swap I bought these bearings to freshen the engine but I then got bored and didn't use them. So I also can't comment if they fit. I see if I can find where I put them to measure them.

Sorry for the thread hijack!
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Postby Wild E. Coyote » Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:03 pm

Did some work today (and last week). Pleased to inform you all that engine is nearly finished. Need to dig out the TB that was refurbished almost two years ago and that will be it. The engine, as it stands ATM:

Image

Image

Image

It is still on a palett and tied to it just in case. I tied it when I was torquing up the crankshaft pulley to prevent it from tipping over and it stayed like this...

Image

Image

Barry, I need to inform you that getting additional 90 degrees is piece of cake if you do it like this :grin:

Really have to go with Chris on this one; I think it really in the end is less hussle to get the engine out and do the service like this. Plenty of space, you can do everyhting and if you use the flywheel locking tool it really can be done in few minutes. Even phasing in the engine is piece of cake when you have plenty of space...

Now, onto the other thing, ie the B6 gearbox conversion. Again bolted the gearbox to the engine to have a look at it. Since I do have a puma spare gearbox and a set of driveshafts bolted them first to see what are required driveshaft lengths.
It turns out that both the short and the long driveshafts need shorting by about 2 cms each. And for the RHS shaft the intermediate shaft should be shortened as it is longer than the puma one.

Image

This hurts: the driveshaft carrier is out of place for ST180 driveshaft

Image

But, that should be shorter by 2 cms and that would bring the bearing closer by 2 cms. Still out of reach, but much easier to make a bespoke carrier.

Since both shafts need shorting by 2 cms, that could be good news for FRP owners as these driveshafts could actually fit their cars!

Still, they would need bespoke driveshaft bearing carrier. Oh, yes, the bearings are the same....

One more thing: what is the hole right to the timing pin hole (marked with red arrow) used for? If it not needed, it can be used as additional fixation for the bespoke driveshaft carrier..
1 x

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Postby tuonokid » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:59 pm

Hi Sinisa
Well done again but three things about using the Ford special tools for fixing the crank pulley bolt:
1. You don't have to take the engine out and
2. The special tool holds the vib damper whilst you are tightening the bolt, whereas using the flywheel locker there's nothing to stop the vib damper pulley rotating with the bolt therefore you should re-time/ re-position the crank again.
3. The weight of your car works to your benefit.
My comment about the 90 deg was regarding how much power it takes to get the 90 deg as shown by your massive extension bar :grin:
I'll make moves to send out that gearbox mount for you tomorrow if that parcel monkey quote I give you is ok
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0 x
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Postby Wild E. Coyote » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:39 pm

Cheers, Barry!

Of course, you are right regarding the pulley, but I torqued it up first, and then timed the engine :grin:
And, special tools cost money, the extension bar in question is the remnant of my kids hockey stick...

The quote is quite OK, thanks
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Postby siju » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:21 pm

Nice work Sinisa. I don't know what that hole in the back of the engine block is.

I agree that torquing the vib damper(the 90deg part) with the engine out of car is easy. Of course you have to time the engine after that. The difficult part for me was torquing the cams (especially the inlet which goes to 105Nm IIRC). If you have the std cams then you have the locking bar (and the spanner of course). But if you have frp cams which have different timing (and don't have the special locking tool but use Errol's method) then it's quite difficlut to hold the cam at the right angle!

Looking forward to the progress with the gearbox.
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Postby tuonokid » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:31 pm

Hi Siju
It's probably just the way you've worded it so just in case anyone else is reading it the camshaft plate is a timing plate and not a locking plate as if they use it as such and not the spanner flats the end of the camshafts will break. You are dead right about tightening the VCT pulley though it's a hard horrible job.
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Postby XAF » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:03 am

Every time you guys talk cambelts I remain resolute that I never ever want to touch it!!!!
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Postby Wild E. Coyote » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:04 am

That way you miss an additional bonding with your car! 8-)
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Postby XAF » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:28 am

Wild E. Coyote wrote:Source of the post That way you miss an additional bonding with your car! 8-)


But also it avoids breaking it and posts to you lovely gents saying "why have my pistons and valves had a full on fight and a conrod decided to leave the party through the side of the block!!" :oops:
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Postby tuonokid » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:52 am

Hi Guys
Whilst you are still online here, James is it still ok to use your paypal and if it is, Sinisa the mount will be picked up tomorrow and be with you in 5-7 days?
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Postby XAF » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:28 pm

tuonokid wrote:Source of the post Hi Guys
Whilst you are still online here, James is it still ok to use your paypal and if it is, Sinisa the mount will be picked up tomorrow and be with you in 5-7 days?
Barry


No worries at all Barry. I'll drop you a text.
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Postby Wild E. Coyote » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:39 am

Went to MOT yesterday.... Again that part of a year.

Image

And here is JASAPP queuing up
Image

Pleased to say JASAPP passed with flying colours! The tester was particularly impressed by brakes and their even operation. The difference on front axis was 2 percent, on rear 3 percent (also for hand brake). The service I did a while ago certainly paid off!
Everything worked as intended, he liked the seats and JASAPP also starred on exhaust test: everything deep in green. Tester was impresssed by its emission taken into account the cat was never replaced and the car has covered 236.000 kms

So, these cars are really well built machines! :wub:
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