"El Puma"

Do you have a Puma that is a project? Do you want to track the progress with your own thread? Feel free to do it here.

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JAC
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby JAC » Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:59 pm

Hi Barry,

I am not sure, whatever was in the cambelt kit was used. Plus new water pump and Rocker cover seal.
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby tuonokid » Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:02 pm

Hi JAC
If any of the two pulleys I mentioned were taken off again as part of the checking the cambelt run new bolts should have been used as they are stretch bolts and should only be tightened once.
Barry
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2001 ColOrado red Puma 1.7, work in progress.
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby Wild E. Coyote » Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:38 am

The bolts are not part of any cambelt kit as pulleys need no removing when replacing the cambelt. Do get the bolts ASAP and replace them as well. That is most probably what has caused the timing issues
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby tuonokid » Sun Nov 29, 2015 11:36 am

Hi Sinisa
The bolts do come with the Gates kit but I don't know for any other kit.
Barry
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2001 ColOrado red Puma 1.7, work in progress.
Westfield SEIW 1800 Zetec.
Building Westfield SEI 2.0 Zetec Blacktop on TBs.
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby Wild E. Coyote » Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:28 pm

Barry, are you sure about that? The bolts securing pulleys to the camshaft? Not the bolts for tensioner? I am alomst 100% sure in the kit are the bolts for the tensioner, not the ones securing thge pulleys to camshafts
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby tuonokid » Sun Nov 29, 2015 7:00 pm

Hi Sinisa
In the Gates kit I bought were the stretch bolts for the crank Pulley and the VCT pulley but not the exhaust pulley as that's not a stretch bolt and you just re-use the existing tensioner bolts as well.
Barry
PS in the instructions in the Gates kit it also tells you the torque/angle settings for the bolts
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2001 ColOrado red Puma 1.7, work in progress.
Westfield SEIW 1800 Zetec.
Building Westfield SEI 2.0 Zetec Blacktop on TBs.
Fiesta Style 1.25
Aprilia Tuono Factory.
1975 Yamaha TY80
Now working on my sons Anglia 105e

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Re: "El Puma"

Postby JAC » Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:02 am

Thank you all for the input.

I have been back and checked this morning. The bolt was changed for a new bolt and hasn't been loosened since.

There is no end float, and the positioning of the pulley us correct, so basically he has no idea why the VCT is not working.

He is currently trying to get more help from other Ford dealers, but it is not going well.
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby JAC » Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:39 pm

And the pain continues :(

So... El Puma is still at the doctors, however, the simptoms have changed slightly.

After checking the timing for the umpteenth time, the VCT is now working, but only when the car is cold?!?!

When the car is cold, it works fine until it warms up and then the VCT stops working and we go back to the power dying at around 4k.

Oh wise ones... any ideas?
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby tuonokid » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:29 pm

Hi JAC
Read this.
viewtopic.php?p=284662
It could be this.
Barry
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2001 ColOrado red Puma 1.7, work in progress.
Westfield SEIW 1800 Zetec.
Building Westfield SEI 2.0 Zetec Blacktop on TBs.
Fiesta Style 1.25
Aprilia Tuono Factory.
1975 Yamaha TY80
Now working on my sons Anglia 105e

My Project Link - viewtopic.php?f=64&t=23509

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Re: "El Puma"

Postby JAC » Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:22 pm

Hi Barry,

Thanks for your reply, as always!

It looks promising, but I just have a couple of questions...

Could the solenoid be intermittent, causing it to work when cold but not hot, and not be due to the temp but pure coincidence?

Shouldn't the diagnostic show a fault for this, even if it is intermittent, shouldnt the log of the fault be in the ecu?

Thanks again.
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby tuonokid » Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:53 pm

Hi JAC
To be honest I'm just giving you ideas at the moment as I'm assuming the car was ok before the cambelt change so my thoughts are that it hasn't gone right. What I would ask for if I was there was the engine to be turned over by hand at least two revolutions in a clockwise direction and then check the timing with the crank pin and camshaft plate. If I could see that was right, I'd look to other things.
The next thing is how does your mechanic know the VCT isn't working? I'm trying to imagine how this could be diagnosed without diagnostics as just a power loss above a certain rpm wouldn't prove anything.
I wish I could give you more info as to how the VCT works but I've never worked on mine and never seen any good diagrams of it but oil pressure I would think would be very similar at 4000rpm whether hot or cold.
If there is a VCT fault I imagine a code would be stored but I'm struggling to think what would pick it up, unless the cam position sensor can do it, if it's an intermittent fault again not sure.
After this is posted I'm going to have a look on the net to see if I can find anything else.
Good luck
Barry
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2001 ColOrado red Puma 1.7, work in progress.
Westfield SEIW 1800 Zetec.
Building Westfield SEI 2.0 Zetec Blacktop on TBs.
Fiesta Style 1.25
Aprilia Tuono Factory.
1975 Yamaha TY80
Now working on my sons Anglia 105e

My Project Link - viewtopic.php?f=64&t=23509

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Re: "El Puma"

Postby JAC » Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:40 pm

Thanks Barry, I really appreciate all the help you are giving me on this.

To answer your questions the best I can, let me give you a recap of what happened so far:

- The cambelt had never been changed in 17 years and 125.000km
- The car was running perfectly when I took it in for the cambelt changing, but the cambelt was flush with the outside of the pulleys.
- The Cambelt, waterpump and rocker cover gasket were changed for new parts, including tensioner and bolts.
- Once changed, the belt was running even further towards the oustide of the pulleys, overhanging by a few mm.
- The crankshaft pulley was changed for a new one, this solved the issue of the belt overhanging although it still runs flush with the outside of the pulleys.
- Once the car was put back together, upon testing the car, it ran fine until approx 4k rpm, where it started to stutter. The dash rev counter has also stopped working.
- While test driving the car with the diagnostic machine plugged in, the machin read revs ok, and at around 3900rm was when power started to die. The machine did not report any errors.
- The engine was dismounted again, the timing was checked and is fine. The engine was turned twice by hand and the timing is still spot on, this process was repeated at least 10 times, with no variation in the timing.
- The engine was put back together again and tested (this time without my presence) and the mechanic reported that it ran fine when cold, with the VCT kicking in at around 4k rpm, but once the engine was warm, it went back to losing power at around 4k.
- The mechanic let the car go cold and tested again, getting the same results.
- The mechanic has spoked to at least 15 other people (from Ford and other places) and noone has any idea.
- His plan is to test the oil pressure at the VCT tommorow.

Unfortunately that is where we stand.

You mentioned the solenoid, which after investigating a little, seems like it can be an issue after removing the rocker cover gasket, if this has not been changed in a long time. However, I also read that this shows a fault on the diagnostic machine, which is not showing. I have seen that Ian G has a solenoid for sale on ebay for about 37 pounds (which is a hell of a lot cheaper than new), which I could purchase and try if that may be the case.

At this point I am completely lost. My mechanical partner (not the mechanic working on the car) is also of no use as he has never worked on a VCT, and he has no access to the car as it is in the garage.

Again, I really appreciate your help, and that of any one else who can offer any ideas.
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby Wild E. Coyote » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:03 pm

I would try hooking up a laptop to the car via OBD. Install on laptop forscan and then run live data. Check cam advance on VCT and you will see if it is working as it should while driving the car. You can also monitor almost anything you like and record it fro future reference or later checking
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby JAC » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:19 pm

Ok. I am not sure what Dignostics Machine he is using, but I will take my laptop with Forscan and OBD scanner (usb) tomorrow.

Thanks.
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby tuonokid » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:29 pm

Hi JAC
I wondered what you had done about the crank pulley, so you bought a new one? Was it the same part as your old one and could you see the difference why the old one was making the belt run off the pulleys? Also the reason I asked about the stretch bolts was I thought you had had the pulleys off more than once so I hope a new bolt was used with the new crank pulley. I'm glad that the pulley run issue is now solved :-)
I'm really starting to struggle now with diagnosing what's wrong but I would imagine the rev counter not working might be an indicator of a fault if there is nothing showing on diagnostics. Replacing the solenoid may sort the problem but it won't cure the rev counter fault so definitely investigate that further. Also could the workings within the VCT pulley be at fault? If they or the solenoid are faulty it's a good idea to check the engine timing again before the engine is re-built.
Barry
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2001 ColOrado red Puma 1.7, work in progress.
Westfield SEIW 1800 Zetec.
Building Westfield SEI 2.0 Zetec Blacktop on TBs.
Fiesta Style 1.25
Aprilia Tuono Factory.
1975 Yamaha TY80
Now working on my sons Anglia 105e

My Project Link - viewtopic.php?f=64&t=23509

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Re: "El Puma"

Postby tuonokid » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:30 pm

:thumbs: Forscan :thumbs:
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2001 ColOrado red Puma 1.7, work in progress.
Westfield SEIW 1800 Zetec.
Building Westfield SEI 2.0 Zetec Blacktop on TBs.
Fiesta Style 1.25
Aprilia Tuono Factory.
1975 Yamaha TY80
Now working on my sons Anglia 105e

My Project Link - viewtopic.php?f=64&t=23509

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Re: "El Puma"

Postby JAC » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:57 pm

I will swing by the mechanics early tomorrow and give it a "Forscan" before he takes it apart again (at the moment it is built).

If Forscan shows anything then I will get him to hold fire before starting to dismantle to check oil pressure at the VCT.

As for the crankpulley, unfortunately I didn't get to see the new one before it was mounted, but it has a new bolt as the mounting system is different to the old one (or something like that). We have looked at the old one now it is removed and can't see any damage to it, but the position of the belt is only a few mm difference, so it may not be obvious to the naked eye.

I will let you know how I get on with Forscan tomorrow.
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby Frank » Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:41 am

I'm throwing this link in, as the symptoms are vaguely similar. It may have some merit or may not - http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/svt- ... rking.html

What I know about Puma VCT and cambelts you could write on the head of a pin. I just know it's a job that needs to be done exactly right.

Took mine to Fords to get my belt done, when they had a special offer on. Mind you, Fords over here are much more familiar with working on Pumas than in your part of the world.

Hope the link helps, or at least gives ideas.
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby tuonokid » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:05 am

Hi Frank
I think this is what I was hinting at for the last few posts, the static timing is everything (as well as getting the pulley bolts tightened correctly), By the way I wouldn't trust a lot of main Ford dealers to replace a 1.7 cam belt correctly nowadays.
Barry
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2001 ColOrado red Puma 1.7, work in progress.
Westfield SEIW 1800 Zetec.
Building Westfield SEI 2.0 Zetec Blacktop on TBs.
Fiesta Style 1.25
Aprilia Tuono Factory.
1975 Yamaha TY80
Now working on my sons Anglia 105e

My Project Link - viewtopic.php?f=64&t=23509

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Re: "El Puma"

Postby JAC » Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:19 pm

Thanks for the input guys.

I called via the garage this morning and he updated me on the latest.

According to his diagnostic machine, the injectors are not injecting enough fuel. He says that the ECU is receiving the order to give an increase in fuel as you accelerate, but the injectors are not doing this, they are only providing about half of the fuel needed.

He did explain this in more detail but I got a little lost along the way ;)

He has Forscan and has already run a diagnostic check with it, but it didn't find anything that his hyper-mega-galactic diagnostic machine didn't find.

I mentioned that I had changed the fuel filter a few days before taking the car in, in case this was of any possible influence, but he says not as the fuel injectors seem to work fine when it is cold.

I'm sorry to say I am now completely lost (if I was ever found in the first place :) ).

I will keep you informed.
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby Frank » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:33 pm

tuonokid wrote:By the way I wouldn't trust a lot of main Ford dealers

Quite right. I have a good one down here, but still questioned them first. If I hadn't been happy with their answers then it would have been an overnight bag and a trip to Steavie 80 miles+ away. That's how important I think it is to get that one right.

As for this thread, down to the balance of probabilities, I reckon. If you start with a working car, do work on it and end up with a non-working car, then do the balance of probabilities suggest that some undiagnosed pre-existing fault has suddenly shown itself or do they suggest that you need to re-trace all the steps taken more closely?
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby JAC » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:50 pm

Hi Frank,

I agree totally on the retracing steps, but we have checked the timing now so many times its unbelievable.

When I went thus morning to see the mechanic it was to mention the solenoid before he started checking oil pressure, but he greeted me with the info about the fuel injection. It is highly unlikely, but it may all be a coincidence.

I just want my car back :(
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby Ian G » Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:29 pm

Does the rev counter still not work?

Can I see a picture of the top of the engine.
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby JAC » Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:50 pm

The rev counter was working again this morning.

I don't have a photo here, do you want it with or without the rocker cover?
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby Ian G » Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:21 pm

I wanted to look at the cam sensor, no worries if the rev counter is OK. Did you get to the bottom of that fault?

I just wondered whether a lack of engine speed signal was giving your other problems.

Does seem to me like you had a working engine so something has been introduced, faulty injectors or fuel pressure has not come on just since its been in the workshop, I would strongly suggest that the ECU is deciding to not fire the VCT or not supply fuel pressure because it has concerns over the state of the timing or something else that it can detect. Hence thinking about engine speed.

What is the latest now? This cold/hot thing again is entirely down to the ECU, there are many processes which depend on coolant temp.
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