"El Puma"

Do you have a Puma that is a project? Do you want to track the progress with your own thread? Feel free to do it here.

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JAC
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby JAC » Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:08 pm

Hi Ian,

The Rev counter just started working again, one day it wasn't, the next it was.

I agree totally that something that was touched while doing the cambelt etc. and has caused the issue, although it could be coincidence, it seems that everything must be related somehow.

The problem I have now is that I took the car to the mechanic because I decided not to risk doing it ourselves, and this is the first time in years that I have done so with a car of mine (although I do always take the wifes car to a mechanic). This mechanic I have known for years, he is about my age, has worked for Ford amongst others, and has done infinite training courses and has lots of diagnostic equipment. He works on rally cars for a couple of local teams, and is highly recommended. I also know that he has done at least a few pumas and various VCT engines. I have taken him all the comments, sugestions and info that I have found here and around the web, and he has read and studied each and every one of them and explained the steps he has taken. So I do trust him, but I am finding that he is not getting anywhere with the car (he has had it now for 3 weeks). If we had tried to do this ourselves, we would probably have spent just as much time, but I would be 100% certain that I have followed all the steps you guys have suggested, now I just have to take his word for it.

I am seriously contemplating giving up on the Puma for now and buying another car. Originally the Puma was going to be a third car, just as a project, but as I liked it so much in the first (and only) week I had it, I decided to keep it as my daily car and look for another project.

Add all this to the fact that my other half thinks that any car over 6 years old is not worth looking at, it is becoming quite stressful :) I keep getting the "I told you to buy a new car" :D

Anyway, enough complaining! Thank you all again for your constant input, it is much appreciated, and I will try and stay positive, but it is damn cold on a motorbike in December :-D
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby tuonokid » Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:49 pm

Hi JAC
I know I might be stating the obvious here but when checking the engine timing was the mechanic turning over the engine in the right direction ie clockwise at the crank pulley as if he was turning it in the wrong direction he could have set the timing wrong. I don't have my copy of the ETIS belt change handy but from memory the injector plugs and loom and the vct solenoid have to be disconnected to get the rocker cover off so they're worth checking. I also can't remember whether there's a vacuum connection to the fuel pressure regulator so that's worth checking as is the pipe for holes if it's got one. Lastly, check the connector to the cam sensor as it's that that triggers the sequential fuelling (injectors).
I hope he manages to fix it for you but if he can't can you ask him to pay for another mechanic to fix it?
Barry
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby JAC » Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:49 pm

Hi All,

Thanks for the input Barry, sorry I didn't reply sooner (its been a holiday here).

I have good news and bad news :D

The good news is that the mechanic finally found the fault with the car, and I have "El Puma" back in my posesion.

The bad news is that it is not fixed yet, and as it is something that is not related to anything he did, the price of the repair just went up.

It turns out that the "flowmeter" (I have no idea if that is the correct word in english) is broken, which is causing the errors with the injection etc.

Here is a photo of the culprit:

Image

I have been quoted 140€ plus VAT for the part here, for an aftermarket part not original Ford, plus fitting.

I am quite sure that I will be able to change the part myself, as long as no set up is required afterwards, but I was wondering if it is worth getting a used part or going for new?

If used is ok, then I will PM Ian G to see if he has one, and I will work out shipping from the UK (in fact, I have a friend coming down at the start of the year that could bring it), but if you guys think I should go new, then I will have to just order the part here (delivery on Monday).

Please let me know your opinions, and as always, thank you for all your help!
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby tuonokid » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:02 pm

Hi JAC
I'm surprised your car didn't show an engine management light if the MAF is the culprit and it was running so rough. So anyway the part you've shown is the MAF and if I was you I would buy genuine Ford fitment. They're easy to fit and there is no setting up just fit it, plug it in and away you go. Don't drop it though as there are fragile springs inside it.
Barry
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby JAC » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:32 pm

Hi Barry,

Yes it is strange that I didn't get a light or a fault in the diagnostics, but I'll worry about that later :)

Do you have any idea how much a geniune MAF is in the UK? I have looked online, but I have no idea if the spare parts places I am looking at online are any good or not.

I could get my friend to buy it and bring it in his luggage, unless carrying it in his luggage with the baggage handlers is a bad idea!
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby tuonokid » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:46 pm

Hi JAC
I just had a quick look online and found a genuine Ford one for £147 + vat so they are expensive. See what Ian G can do for you. If it's well packed it should be ok.
Barry
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2001 ColOrado red Puma 1.7, work in progress.
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby Frank » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:54 pm

JAC wrote:The good news is that the mechanic finally found the fault with the car, and I have "El Puma" back in my possession.

Good to hear you have your car back.

Out of interest, if the MAF wasn't throwing any codes, how did your mechanic work out that was, and is, the part at fault?
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby JAC » Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:53 pm

Barry,
Thanks for looking, I will see what price they come back at here, but I guess it will be about the same. I will contact Ian G to see if he has one. Is it worth going used or would it be better to just buy new?


Frank,
I don't know why the MAF isn't showing any codes. According to the mechanic, he basically said that he just started from scratch, ignoring anything to do with the VCT and what he had done, and the simptoms pointed to the MAF (seems to be a common problem here on many cars, maybe due to heat and dust). He said that he did some creative bypassing (not sure what he did) and the car ran fine, so it confirmed that it is the MAF. He also asked if I was sure that the car was ok before I took it in, as he had been nowhere near that end of the engine. I said it had been fine, but then I remembered that we changed the air filter a couple of days before I took it in, and as we saw the cambelt wasn't healthy, I didn't drive the car for more than a few minutes before I took it in to the garage (I left it parked in the warehouse).

Now that I have tried the car, the current simptoms are: The car runs fine at lower RPM, at around 4000rpm, you can feel the car pick up due to the VCT, but when it hits around 5000rpm it just loses all power, as though it is flooded with fuel. (Oh, and now and again, very rarely, it just dies when you come to a stop, but starts again first time no problem).
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby tuonokid » Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:15 pm

Hi JAC
I suppose it's always better to buy new but do you really want to spend that much on it when you've just spent so much. If mine went I'd definitely get one from Ian as I'd know it was tested and working.
Barry
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby Ian G » Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:13 am

Genuine Ford, tested and not 140 EUR

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-Ford- ... 1695255604
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby Frank » Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:27 pm

JAC wrote:He said that he did some creative bypassing (not sure what he did) and the car ran fine, so it confirmed that it is the MAF.

Hmmm........

Well, re-reading this thread, what's done is done.

As to the future, I'd send off for a MAF from IanG. Meantime, spray your existing MAF sensor wire heavily with proper Contact Cleaner, especially of the air filter side of it. Also re-examine your air filter and its position, just in case. Doesn't matter if the spray fixes it and you have a 'new' MAF coming, you can never have too many MAFs around in dusty locations, I reckon.

I would also get really good with a code reader and Forscan (or Torque Pro on Android), especially in live data mode (always a 2 man job, unless you want to go into a tree!) as I'm reckoning you'll need to understand this car and fix it yourself, before taking it to a mechanic or Fords (who seem to be less than useful out your way) ever again.

I would add, you were right not to try to do that cambelt yourself.

JAC wrote:(Oh, and now and again, very rarely, it just dies when you come to a stop, but starts again first time no problem).

For the little time it takes, just cover the basics and put it through the 'battery off ECU learning curve' again, as it would have been off during the cambelt stuff. - Disconnect battery for a couple of hours, reconnect, run at idle for 3 minutes. Allow car to warm up and 2 minutes at a steady 1200rpm. Then a 8 -12km drive 'normal' drive, i.e. keep below 5500rpm. The ECU will then have relearned its stuff.

Hope this helps. :-)
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby JAC » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:31 pm

Thanks Frank.

I have already ordered the MAF from Ian G, who has been super helpful (as always it seems).

Basically, between my friend (who is a mechanic) and myself we have always worked on my cars and projects, never been to a garage for anything. The only reason the Puma ended up in the garage is because I read here about the issues and decided to give it to an "expert" (that didn't turn out how I planned it ;) ).

This is actually the first Ford I have owned since a Sierra V6 which was my first car many moons ago. Normally we have worked on VAG engines and some French stuff, but no fords, and definitely no Ford VCTs.

I would.just mount the MAF myself, but seeing that my bill at the garage is already going to be much higher than I thought, I am going to let the mechanic mout it, just in case it doesn't actually fix it.

I will do the reset this weekend that you mention, and take it for a run with the ODB diagnostics on, both Torque and Forscan. I bought a new USB scanner, as the Bluetooth one I had didn't recognize the Puma.

Again, thanks for all your input guys, and lets hope the MAF fixes the issue.
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby tuonokid » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:47 pm

If the ECU reset doesn't work in sorting out your tick over, there's an Idle Control Valve reset on Forscan which might help.
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby JAC » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:42 am

UPS inform me that the MAF from Ian G is out for delivery today :thumbs:

Lets hope this fixes the issue as the car is running terrible at the moment. It misses in 1st and 2nd when cold, and dies at high revs. There is also a strong petrol smell now and again. The mechanic is convinced that the MAF will fix this, let's hope he is correct!
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby JAC » Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:55 pm

The MAF arrived, is fitted, and the car works!!!! :thumbs:

It is not 100% smooth in 1st and 2nd, but I will give the ECU a reset this weekend and see what the outcome is.

One thing that I have noticed is that the VCT seems to act at 5000rpm now, I seem to remember that it was around 4000rpm before all this mess, but to be truthful, I am just glad the car seems to be running properly now!

Thanks for all your guys help on this, and thanks Ian for the quick shipment of the MAF.

The only bad part about this is that I just had to pay a 950€ bill at the mechanic :(
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby mihalyn90 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:34 am

950 euros... omg... i bought my Pum for 1500 :)

anyway... i'll be seeing this thread... i am going in spring for a cambelt change... i have problems with the idle valve and as i see the TPS...

on short runs, all is fine, at longer runs... when i go to a full stop, my rev is in the sky while the clutch is pressed :)

I will give in a clean on the TPS and ICV see if it help and check for camblet :)

I am happy you got all this thing sorted... got a nice reading... Thank you...

Steve, the other Puma lover, i salute ya'
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby JAC » Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:57 pm

Today I go some time and did (or tried to) an ECU reset.

I disconnected the battery from the car, and to make the most of it, I did a quick parasitic draw test to check the draw from leaving the ODB connector plugged in. The results are exactly the same (48mah) with or without the ODB connector plugged in.

I left the battery disconnected for 2 hours as suggested.

During this time, I remove the back seats to see how much weight I would save by removing them. I must say that it is ridiculous how little the base of the backseats weights, I think my phone weighs more than the seats :D Anyways, as I would need to declare the removal of the seats on the cars paperwork (which involves an engineering project and professional certificates etc.) I will be leaving them installed :)

After 2 hours, I reconnected the battery, started the car, and let it idle for approximately 3 mins. Barry (I think it was Barry) mentioned leaving it for 2 mins at a constant 1200rpm, but as the idle rpm is set at 850rpm, it sat at 850rpm for 3 mins.

I then took the car for a calm drive of 20km without pushing it over 4000rpm.

I must say, this has only made the stalling issue worse :(

Before, it would stall now and again, now it is doing it a lot more often (but not all the time).

As Barry mentioned doing an "idle valve reset" with Forscan, I hooked up Forscan and ran some tests.

The results of the "Key On Engine Off" were:

(OK) [13:29:14.116] Key On Engine Running On Demand Self-Test has been started
(WARN) [13:30:26.716] Test completed, found DTCs: P1000, P1650
(OK) [13:31:26.203] Key On Engine Off On Demand Self-Test has been started
(WARN) [13:31:37.587] Test completed, found DTCs: P1000
===DTC P1000===
Code: P1000 - On-Board Diagnostic (OBD) Systems Readiness Test Not Complete

Module: Powertrain Control Module

Diagnostic Trouble Code details

Check of all systems is not complete since last memory clear.

--Possible Causes--
- The vehicle is new from the factory and has not yet been through a complete OBD Drive Cycle.
- The battery or PCM has been disconnected.
- An OBD monitor failure had occurred prior to completion of an OBD Drive Cycle.
- The PCM DTCs have been cleared as part of a service process.

Note: The only way P1000 can be cleared (removed) from memory is when all of the OBD monitors have been successfully completed during normal vehicle operation.

P1000 cannot be cleared from the PCM when: 1. The thermostat is stuck open and a DTC is not generated. 2. There is an open VSS circuit and a DTC is not generated. 3. If the vehicle has a Power Take Off (PTO), the circuit is shorted to VPWR or B+, or the PTO is ON during Self-test.

The purpose of the Diagnostic Trouble Code DTC P1000 is to indicate that not all of the On Board Diagnostics OBD monitors have yet been successfully completed. You may also refer to the OBD Drive Cycle defined under the Powertrain Control/Emission Diagnosis Manual-Diagnostic Methods or the Owner's Manual.

Remember: It is not necessary to remove P1000 from the Powertrain Control Module PCM by driving the vehicle.

===END DTC P1000===


The results of the "Key On Engine Running" test were:

(OK) [13:29:14.116] Key On Engine Running On Demand Self-Test has been started
(WARN) [13:30:26.716] Test completed, found DTCs: P1000, P1650
===DTC P1000===
Code: P1000 - On-Board Diagnostic (OBD) Systems Readiness Test Not Complete

Module: Powertrain Control Module

Diagnostic Trouble Code details

Check of all systems is not complete since last memory clear.

--Possible Causes--
- The vehicle is new from the factory and has not yet been through a complete OBD Drive Cycle.
- The battery or PCM has been disconnected.
- An OBD monitor failure had occurred prior to completion of an OBD Drive Cycle.
- The PCM DTCs have been cleared as part of a service process.

Note: The only way P1000 can be cleared (removed) from memory is when all of the OBD monitors have been successfully completed during normal vehicle operation.

P1000 cannot be cleared from the PCM when: 1. The thermostat is stuck open and a DTC is not generated. 2. There is an open VSS circuit and a DTC is not generated. 3. If the vehicle has a Power Take Off (PTO), the circuit is shorted to VPWR or B+, or the PTO is ON during Self-test.

The purpose of the Diagnostic Trouble Code DTC P1000 is to indicate that not all of the On Board Diagnostics OBD monitors have yet been successfully completed. You may also refer to the OBD Drive Cycle defined under the Powertrain Control/Emission Diagnosis Manual-Diagnostic Methods or the Owner's Manual.

Remember: It is not necessary to remove P1000 from the Powertrain Control Module PCM by driving the vehicle.

===END DTC P1000===

===DTC P1650===
Code: P1650 - PSP Switch Out of Self-test Range

Module: Powertrain Control Module

Diagnostic Trouble Code details

PSP switch circuit fault

Steering wheel not turned during self test.  Note some vehicles require the steering wheel to be rotated to full lock and released.

Open or Shorted PSP Switch circuit..

This DTC may be caused by :

Suspect PSP switch.

Suspect power steering hydraulic system.

Suspect PCM.


I then checked the Engine Idle RPM setting, and it is set to 848rpm.

I looked for a function to reset the "Idle Valve" that Barry mentioned, but I could not find it. The only thing I could find related that it would let me control was the "Idle Air Intake", but as soon as this was set to anything over 0% the car stalled.

I looked into the programming features, but it tells me that I need an "extended liscense key" to use them. The option to reset the ECU to default parameters did not complete (I tried this 3 times, but it failed every time).


So...

I am still having the stalling issue (even more than before, but not all the time). What happens is that when I come to a junction, if I come to a stop with the clutch pressed down, usually in 2nd, the reves of the car drop to below 500rpm and the car stalls. The car starts again no problem, and this does not happen every time.

Any ideas or tips as to what to try next?

(BTW, my last Ford, the V6 Sierra didn't have this issue 'cos it was a good old carburettor with an idle screw ;) )
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby tuonokid » Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:28 pm

Hi JAC
It was Frank not me that suggested the ECU reset but if you didn't follow his instructions it may not have worked. I would suggest you re-do the reset again and then drive the car around for a while to make sure it's ok.
As for the ICV reset the car has to be in a certain state before you do it as it will tell you on the computer screen ie at normal operating temp with the engine running and all the switches in the off position. When you start the test the computer will ask you to do things like turn the steering 180 deg, press the brake pedal and press the clutch pedal which you should do when prompted. Once you have done all this the car will rev itself up for a split second and then the test is over as indicated on your computer screen. Then it should run ok unless there is something else wrong with it.
I hope that helps.
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Aprilia Tuono Factory.
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby JAC » Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:50 pm

Sorry Barry, I had already started typing before I realised that I couldn't remember if it was you or Frank.

The test did ask me to press the brake and release (which I did) and turn the steering wheel 180º and release (which I guessed was turn it back to center), the test did reach 100% but as you can see from the results, it didn't detect the turning of the wheel. The only thing I can think of that was on was the interior light, as I did the test with the door open as it was so hot today here (26ºC). I will give it another go tomorrow if I get time.

To be honest, I am not much of a mechanic, as my mechanical partner always odes the dirty work, I usually deal with the electrical side and the research, but as I decided to keep the Puma for myself, he is letting me get on with it (which is a good learning curve I guess). As I was getting (or trying to) the Puma running properly today, he was at the side of me working on a Renault that is 25 years old and hasn't been started since 2003. In the time it took me to do the ECU testing, he removed half the engine, the fuel pump, the whole air intake system, put it all back together, got the car started and still had time to laugh at me :D (I must admit, he does offer to help, but my pride keeps telling him "no, I'm fine" and then I come running to you guys ;) )
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby tuonokid » Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:25 am

Hi JAC
Yes you will have to do it again as the steering wheel needs to go slightly over 180 deg and it also gives another instruction which I can't remember but I think it means depress the clutch pedal. It's much easier to do the Forscan stuff with a passenger sat in giving you instructions what to do when the requests/commands come on screen.
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Aprilia Tuono Factory.
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Now working on my sons Anglia 105e

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Re: "El Puma"

Postby Frank » Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:33 am

JAC wrote:After 2 hours, I reconnected the battery, started the car, and let it idle for approximately 3 mins. Barry (I think it was Barry) mentioned leaving it for 2 mins at a constant 1200rpm, but as the idle rpm is set at 850rpm, it sat at 850rpm for 3 mins.

I then took the car for a calm drive of 20km without pushing it over 4000rpm.

I must say, this has only made the stalling issue worse :(

Yeah, it would be. 3 minutes at idle, then let it warm up, then 2 minutes at 1200rpm using your foot on the accelerator to keep it at a constant 1200 rpm.
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby Frank » Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:37 am

Edit - Note to self - when editing an existing post, try actually selecting the word 'Edit' and not 'Quote' or you will end up with a double post that cannot be deleted. :-)

The result of not doing a 'battery off ECU learning curve' reset on a Puma can range from almost no discernible difference to normal or to violently kangarooing up the road for half a mile with the brakes full on feeling, which then improves but the car then runs like some old granny car...or anywhere inbetween those two extremes.

I encountered the latter extreme and very quickly learned how to become the 'World Expert of ECU Resets on Pumas' :-P

Please also note this from an earlier post here -

Frank wrote:I would also get really good with a code reader and Forscan (or Torque Pro on Android), especially in live data mode ( always a 2 man job, unless you want to go into a tree!)
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Re: "El Puma"

Postby Wild E. Coyote » Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:52 am

Code P1650 will pop up unless you turn the steering wheel all THE WAY to it's endpoint. Only then the switch opens up and PCM adds throttle to compensate the extra strain that the pump is putting on the engine. Having said that, I discovered it only afyer I have replaced it and noticed how it works; it was faulty and I had the same error as well :|
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Wild E. Coyote
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Model: 1.7
Location: Croatia

Re: "El Puma"

Postby Wild E. Coyote » Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:57 am

Frank wrote:I would also get really good with a code reader and Forscan (or Torque Pro on Android), especially in live data mode ( always a 2 man job, unless you want to go into a tree!)


Actually no need for another person: you record it. You can select over 20 different parameters to be recorded and then study it later at your desk.

If needed, ask me what you would like to monitor and I can do the same thing on my car which is OK and then you can make a comparison. My guess is that VCT is troubling you. If you want, I can go on a drive, record it and then send you the data and after examining it you try to replicate the driving conditions from me?

Just a thought, but I am willing to give it a try if you want?
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Wild E. Coyote
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Location: Croatia

Re: "El Puma"

Postby Wild E. Coyote » Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:59 am

JAC wrote:
I looked into the programming features, but it tells me that I need an "extended liscense key" to use them.



Getting the extended license is straightforward automated task which is rather well documented on Forscan page. That shouldn't stop you

This is how to get the extended licence
http://forscan.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=836


This is the generator link: http://forscan.org/forum/extlic.php
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