FRP #32 - Let's go back to the start...

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FRP #32 - Let's go back to the start...

Postby xnbradley » Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:16 am

I thought I would start again... now that I am a little less naive and a little less arrogant...

I bought #32 blind... instantly fell in love... now I'm determined to make it last...

My new approach... 'Nobody said it was easy... No one ever said it would be this hard' - Chris Martin

Step 1... I got myself some of these...

IMG_1842.JPG


tomorrow is Day 1... only one goal... to replace PAS pump to get it through MOT retest on Tuesday...

peace
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FRP #32 - Let's go back to the start...

Postby stuvy » Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:00 am

My Halfords toolbox has earned me thousands and I'm not joking

If and when you break stuff it can be a pain getting replacements as they don't always have bits in stock
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FRP #32 - Let's go back to the start...

Postby xnbradley » Sat Nov 26, 2016 4:11 pm

Day 1...

it has gone well... 2.5 hours... old pump removed... new pump installed... system filled and all air removed.. a huge sense of achievement...

there is the bugger...
IMG_1845.JPG

so where were those jack points again...
IMG_1847.JPG

I knew she could fly...
IMG_1848.JPG

IMG_1850.JPG

little trick from Barry...
IMG_1852.JPG

the old syphon trick...
IMG_1853.JPG

IMG_1854.JPG

IMG_1856.JPG

The old one is out...
IMG_1857.JPG

IMG_1858.JPG

The new one is ready...
IMG_1861.JPG

All back in...
IMG_1862.JPG

IMG_1863.JPG


took it for a drive...

hasn't made a blind bit of difference... steering is exactly as it was before...

'no one said it would be this hard...
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FRP #32 - Let's go back to the start...

Postby Frank » Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:35 pm

xnbradley wrote:Source of the post

took it for a drive...

hasn't made a blind bit of difference... steering is exactly as it was before...

I haven't been following this or your other thread on PAS, so could you just recap on the PAS electrical system testing that you've done prior to changing the pump?

Then I'll know what has already been checked and take it from there.
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FRP #32 - Let's go back to the start...

Postby tuonokid » Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:05 pm

I could be wrong Nick but I think the only electrical connection the PAS has is a connection via the PSP switch through to the ECU and then the ICV. So the pump should be pumping all the time but when the steering wheel is turned more than 180 deg the ECU gives the ICV a nudge and raises the tick over slightly, lightening the steering probably for parking.

I have to ask, is there no difference at all between the steering with engine off and engine running? It must be nearly impossible to drive.

If you're stuck I have the right pump on my scrapper Puma (no A/C) it doesn't look pretty but it's a freebie to you as long as you pay the postage. I can't guarantee it works but as I said it's there if you want it.
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FRP #32 - Let's go back to the start...

Postby xnbradley » Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:15 pm

Hey there...

No difference at all with engine running...

I've actually really enjoyed the feel if no PAS... was worried that I wasn't going to like it with it working..

it's not that bad to drive... parking is a bit stiff... but when ya actually driving you can feel the road...

not sure what to do now... definitely the right pump... I tested it again with Forscan and it came back with the same fault...

DTC P1650 - this code indicates the Power Steering Pressure (PSP) input to the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) is high. In the key ON engine running (KOER) self-test, this code indicates the PSP input did not change state.

Possible Causes
- Faulty Power Steering Pressure (PSP)
- Power Steering Pressure (PSP) harness is open or shorted
- Power Steering Pressure (PSP) circuit poor electrical connection
- Damaged Powertrain Control Module (PCM)

When I do a dynamic test and turn it to full lock the level is still LOW where as with my other puma it switches to HIGH.. I'm pretty sure that the pump is working as I got quite a few bubbles when turning right to left lock with engine running... which I didn't before...

gonna have to cancel the MOT on tuesday and postpone it another week..
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FRP #32 - Let's go back to the start...

Postby Frank » Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:43 pm

tuonokid wrote:Source of the post I could be wrong Nick but I think the only electrical connection the PAS has is a connection via the PSP switch through to the ECU and then the ICV.

No, I reckon that's right.

xnbradley wrote:Source of the post I tested it again with Forscan and it came back with the same fault...

Unless you cleared that error code before fitting the new pump (or had the battery disconnected for an hour or two) then, yeah, it will show the same error code.

xnbradley wrote:Source of the post I'm pretty sure that the pump is working as I got quite a few bubbles when turning right to left lock with engine running... which I didn't before...

Well, that's a start. Maybe it just needs more bleeding. In addition to the usual simple full lock to full lock bleeding method there is also a more advanced vacuum pump method to clear stubborn air locks.

I don't think that is needed yet, so maybe just try doing more full lock to full lock bleeding on it.
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FRP #32 - Let's go back to the start...

Postby xnbradley » Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:57 pm

Hey there...

I am pretty sure that the ignition on, engine running on demand live test is a new result that does not refer to any previous tests or results... Forscan says that it is either a faulty PAS Switch, a faulty hydraulic system or a faulty PCM... I don't get any other errors or faults... so I am not sure it could be the PCM...

as Ian G has said already... the switch is only there to deal with low pressure... and wouldn't prohibit PAS... and I am guessing that having some air in the system would only reduce the PAS... rather than not make it work at all...

think I need to get a mechanic involved...
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FRP #32 - Let's go back to the start...

Postby XAF » Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:18 pm

I think a mechanic could be a good idea. We don't know if the installation of the PAS at the front of the car ever worked. Maybe it was a faulty installation from the beginning and you need to start again with standard parts, like the one Barry suggested.

It's always hard trying to problem solve someone else's untested / verified work
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FRP #32 - Let's go back to the start...

Postby tuonokid » Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:29 pm

As Nick says I don't think trying to bleed it some more is going to do any harm and it's a freebie before you take it to a mechanic. The only other thing I can think of checking is the lines to the rack just to make sure they are connected as it's possible (I don't know why) that the previous owner could have put the lines in a loop without connecting into the rack.
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FRP #32 - Let's go back to the start...

Postby xnbradley » Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:44 pm

Hi there...

So just been looking at the old pump... and noticed that on the high pressure outlet there is a pin in the centre that you can push in to open the valve... a bit like the pin in the centre of a tyre valve... looks like fluid can only get through when the pin is pushed in... again... similar to air going into a tyre...

IMG_1869.PNG

IMG_1874.PNG


SO when I connected the adapter that went between the pump and the goodridge connecter... there wasn't anything that was going to engage the pin... so thinking logically... if nothing pushes/pulls the pin in... no fluid is going to get through... could this be the problem... is there some thing on the standard connector that Ford produced that engages this pin...

Pipes are definitely plumbed in ok...

Can anything go wrong with the steering rack to cause the PAS to stop working? surely if any seals had gone I'd be losing fluid...

Cheers
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FRP #32 - Let's go back to the start...

Postby xnbradley » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:47 pm

Just read online that the pin is a pressure relief valve...

looks like I am gonna be replacing the steering rack...
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FRP #32 - Let's go back to the start...

Postby tuonokid » Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:03 am

Before you do this consult a mechanic as it looks a fairly major job without a certain result.
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FRP #32 - Let's go back to the start...

Postby xnbradley » Sun Nov 27, 2016 9:15 am

One last question before speaking to a mechanic...

I noticed that when I compared the two pumps before swapping them... that the female high pressure outlet had a silver circle that the seal sits on when you screw the adapter in... see photo...

IMG_1860.JPG


The one on the right is the old one and you can see that when I removed the adapter the circle is lower than the new pump on the left... it looks like there is no space around the edge... When I then went to screw the adapter into the new one it initially stopped when I made contact with the circle,, but then I was able to continue to screw it in until the nut was flush to the pump... when I took the adapter out again... both the pumps looked the same...

Could it be that the adapter is too long and is not allowing the silver circle to be higher and therefore let fluid out... this is the only difference I can see between the two pumps... and the only change that I made to a pump that I have been assured was 100% working before I pushed the silver circle in further...

this is my last idea of what could be the cause of the problem... other than it being a problem with the rack...

I have until the 9th December to get it sorted before the MOT runs out... if I cant do it by then... it will be off the road and I will be driving the Black Puma... which wont be all that bad...

Thanks for all ya help... good to know that I am not on my own in this...

Cheers

Christian
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FRP #32 - Let's go back to the start...

Postby tuonokid » Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:52 am

That's why I said have a word with James. As far as I know that connection and the one on the rack has a special nut at £15 a go which makes a high pressure seal. I have no idea how it works as I've never seen one but it could seal with a type of olive. James has brand new hoses and the new nuts and could maybe help you out with this.
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FRP #32 - Let's go back to the start...

Postby XAF » Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:26 pm

Will take a pic of the new pipe ends later, not got any unions to hand though, they're on the car!
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FRP #32 - Let's go back to the start...

Postby tuonokid » Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:49 pm

https://www.fordpartsuk.com/shop/ford_p ... _c_253.htm

Is this it?

I wonder if it leaves an olive behind when you unscrew it?
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FRP #32 - Let's go back to the start...

Postby xnbradley » Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:37 pm

Hey there...

It is a good question about leaving an olive behind... I will investigate later with the second pump... still wouldn't puch the pin in though... as nothing in the middle...

Genuine-Ford-Power-Steering-Pipe-6742740-_57.jpg


This however looks exactly like the adapter that I removed from the pump when I got it through the post... nothing missing from looking at the photo...
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FRP #32 - Let's go back to the start...

Postby xnbradley » Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:50 pm

So I have had a good look at the high pressure output on the PAS pump... there is no way that the pressurised fluid comes out of the pump in the middle... in the centre it is just a high pressure valve that goes into the pump and not out...

From the photo below... there is no other holes in the ?silver olive... and I have not been able to budge it... however... there is the hole in the threaded part that looks like it is the pressurised outlet from the pump... there is honestly no other way that the fluid can get out... there seems to be a ridge on the outside of the pump that indicates a channel inside coming from the pump..

IMG_1879 (1).jpg


as you can see in the photo... this is the level of the silver ring using the Goodridge adapter... the darker area round above it is not thread and is where the silver ring was when using the original Ford adapter... this means that the pressurised fluid has to somehow get into the piping through the threaded part of the adapter... I can't see any other way doing...

If this is true... then there is no way that the pressurised fluid can get into the piping using the Goodridge adapter as it makes a seal on top of the silver ring which in turn seals the pressurised fluid in the pump... looking at the original Ford part though... 6742740... I can't see how this lets the fluid through either... the distance to the silver ring is 15mm... the distanc to the centre of the hole is 9mm... but the original Ford adapter is 18mm... it don't make sense...
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FRP #32 - Let's go back to the start...

Postby xnbradley » Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:04 pm

Looking at this picture of them... they may actually seal round the top rim of the threaded female socket and not round the top of the silver ring...
Img.jpg

Just counted the thread on the adapter (4) and then the female socket and 4 turns would not block the hole... the male thread may not go down far enough to occlude the fluid feed hole...and so filling the space around the high pressure release valve and then traveling up into the pipe...

I think that this may be the problem... I gotta find the right adapter now that will allow me to attach the Goodridge pipe to the pump... probably knackered both pumps though... oh well...
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FRP #32 - Let's go back to the start...

Postby xnbradley » Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:11 pm

So this is what I am currently using... a Goodridge 185 Straight Power Steering Adaptar, -6 x 1.5 x M14 x 1.5(185004)
Goodridge-185004.jpg
Goodridge-185004.jpg (3.94 KiB) Viewed 2081 times


I just realised something... maybe the guy who fitted it... simply put it in the wrong way... as the right side has 4 threads... nah... it couldn't be that simple... could it...

nah... he has just ordered the wrong type... there are normal and o-ring type adapters...

I think I need a Goodridge 185 Series Adapter Fittings, -6 straight to 1/2x20 INV (185001)

185001-700x850.png


Could be wrong as there does not seem to be the white seal that goes against the pump housing...

I need sleep...
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FRP #32 - Let's go back to the start...

Postby xnbradley » Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:01 am

As ever... it has already been discussed online...

http://www.canadianrodder.com/forum/sho ... hp?t=14122

nothing new under the sun...
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FRP #32 - Let's go back to the start...

Postby red » Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:47 am

I have nothing useful to add but, good luck sorting it out :grin:
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FRP #32 - Let's go back to the start...

Postby xnbradley » Mon Nov 28, 2016 12:32 pm

Good news...

Parker Hydrolics have saved the day... £3.59 plus postage... so i bought 2...

6MJ-6MB 9/16 Male JIC to 9/16 Male UN/UNF SAE with O-Ring

Will let ya know how it goes... I just hope I haven't knackered the pump...
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FRP #32 - Let's go back to the start...

Postby red » Mon Nov 28, 2016 12:58 pm

Also, I have that same Halfords socket kit I think and it is excellent.
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