The "If I can do it, you can" thread...

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Mr Red Barron said:
[post]356111[/post] Any updates? This is one of my fav project puma threads!
Why thanks Red Barron... and apologies for my tardiness, all shall be revealed...


...Yes, like a Phoenix rising from the ashes, or possibly last night's curry which still won't disappear after two flushes... I have returned! :lol:

Once more calling upon great reserves of patience (as I've little else to rely on skill-wise) to stalk my Puma until I overcome its wild side and get it purring like a kitten; all while explaining how I've gone about it, so that other tenderfoots can follow in my tracks and hopefully avoid being chewed up and spat out by their own little kittie.

First, though, a quick explanation for the extended leave... and for a thread which hopes to help mechanical virgins pop their automotive DIY cherry, a rather dirty confession!

Basically, I needed the intervention of a mechanic, despite my best intentions sometimes you just have to! :oops: It came after very nearly losing the Puma due to a cambelt change that had gone wrong. Not my work I hasten to add, I'm not that foolish to attempt it (yet :grin: )... and indeed tbf it covered about 500 miles or more after being done, however, it then decided to 'let go' and sounded truly catastrophic.

I had no real idea what was causing it but a quick check with the diagnostic gizmo suggested that the timing might be out and after getting some advice from Barry (much appreciated btw) on how to do it, I checked the timing to find that it was indeed out, waaaay out. When one cam was horizontal the other was at about 75-80 degrees. Eeek!

After another rather despairing conversation with Baz me ol' china (sorry, the missus got Eastenders on iPlayer as I type) and the strong prospect was raised of valves having gone all AC/DC on me and head-banged their way along the highway to hell, it was decided to best to then leave it to a professional, and prepare myself for a large bill and possibly a terminal kitty.

So I left it, in fact for a few months as it was all rather depressing and I had other things going on that took priority. Eventually, I had a mechanic I'd gotten to know have a look at it for me and, as luck would have it, he needed a roof-rack for his Disco and I happened to have one going spare, so a deal was struck!

It was trailered there, just in case, but it was driven back! Thankfully, in the end, it just needed fully re-timing (as in the Gates tech bulletin, http://www.partinfo.co.uk/files/Gates%20TB%20036%20K035433XS.pdf which it's suspected wasn't properly followed hence the problem) but definitely a good call not starting again and then trailering it as the mechanic said he'd never seen a car so "out" that had not mashed its valves, so a very lucky escape!

Of course, it does mean that the car now needs a bit of a shake-down as it's been stood still for seven months. One of the first jobs being a sticking offside caliper which was noticed on the drive back.

So that's presented me with a perfect opportunity to pick up basically where we left off all those months ago, looking at the 300mm brake disc conversion! Spooky huh?!

After previously being forced to admit defeat in using the Grand Focus calipers (due to their carriers using M14 bolts) I'd ordered some ST170 ones from a scrappy who assured me they were in "good working order". They arrived when all of the above was happening, so had sat in my shed ever since. This, it turned out, was unfortunate, as when I eventually got around to inspecting them this was what I found...

IMG_2439 by G Whizz, on Flickr

... to be strictly accurate this was about 30 mins later as I'd already started on physically de-rusting 'em.

IMG_2440 by G Whizz, on Flickr

Not my idea of GWO and annoyingly missing the springs too. Grrr. :evil:

Now, I did have the option of a local company powder coating them for £30 the pair, which seemed quite reasonable... but in the spirit of this thread (and being a tight git) I decided to have a crack at stripping, de-rusting, rebuilding and painting them myself.

It was quickly evident that this was going to be a bit laborious and a battle of attrition so I thought I'd proceed straight to chemical warfare :) Accordingly, I removed as much as I could with a flat screwdriver blade and a wire brush and then, as I already had some Bilt Hamber Deox C, decided to pop the calipers into a solution of it to see if that could do the trick.

Having spoken to Pete at B&H he assured me they could be dropped in 'whole' but as I'd already decided on rebuilding the calipers I stripped 'em down first. Most folks use an airline to pop the piston out, not having one I made do with an SDS chisel bit and slowly tapping it out. The piston could have been worse but still worth the rebuild...

IMG_2442 by G Whizz, on Flickr

With seals also removed and suitably bare, I dropped the calipers in the solution and waited to see if it worked... this was the end result:

IMG_2458 by G Whizz, on Flickr

I was amazed to find gold powder coat still under all that rust!

IMG_2459 by G Whizz, on Flickr

Bit amusing though that the other was revealed to be silver powder coated... ah well!

It took a couple of goes to get there over a couple of days (with a bit of wire brushing in between to agitate and break off what rust I could to help the solution penetrate) but it was really rather effective. It's quite cheap too and 1ltr of Deox C powder makes about 20litres of solution in all, so there's plenty left, even after doing the carriers too, which were just as bad:

IMG_2444 by G Whizz, on Flickr

I decided I was going for a simple Hammerite Smooth paint job, mainly as I already had some (I did say I was tight), the choice being gold or silver but I figured the gold might be a bit OTT so went 2 coats of silver to get this...

IMG_2461 by G Whizz, on Flickr

Not bad really, came up smart I thought.

IMG_2462 by G Whizz, on Flickr

I then decided, what the heck, a bit of bling wasn't a t'ing and so did the carriers in the gold:

IMG_2473 by G Whizz, on Flickr

I'ze gangsta now! (Well, probably more Gianni Versace but you get my drift )

So, now I 'just' gotta fit 'em... a couple of quick questions to throw out there (and check if anyone's been reading this far) ... the carriers didn't have the stainless anti-rattle clips and I can't seem to find any online, are these obsolete nowadays?

Also, I'm not too keen to drill the hubs unless absolutely essential, so was wondering what do folks think of my alternative idea of having the ST170 M12 carrier bolts turned down to M10 roughly halfway down, so they screw into the carriers but then don't need the hub holes enlarging? Feasible? Ludicrous...or maybe that's Ludacris now I'm getting my bling on?

I shall eagerly await your thoughts on this, and in the meantime also turn the noggin to my next project as today I managed to pick up some ST170 rear hubs etc. that some thoroughly decent soul had sprinkled a little Moondust on and kindly machined to take the ring for the Puma ABS system, cheers bud! :eek:k:
 
Hi Greg
Good to see you back on here mate, I've noticed you hovering over the last few days and wondered how the car was, glad to see you got it fixed :thumbs:
Barry
 
Cheers Barry, good to be back :grin: yeah popped in briefly and then again, spotted Ben's ad and then finally managed to grab the rears...so fortunate timing! First to sort the fronts though, any thoughts on the questions post? :)
 
Hi Greg
Stick to the big bolts for the front calipers and drill out the caliper mounts in small stages. I have a big selection of metric and imperial drills and just kept upsizing until the holes were big enough. If you go straight to the big size you might burn out the drill or not get the holes square.
Barry
 
Hi Barry, you reckon the stepping down the M12 not a good idea then? Out of interest, if so how come... lack of strength? I asked an engineering shop and they thought it'd be fine... but of course it work for them so that why I wanted to check what folks thought on here.

Just been tracking through your thread, love those seats! :grin:

New seats might be project after next, looking at RX8's, ST's and Alfa 147's at present, possibly Clio 182's...
 
Hi Greg
As an engineer, albeit Civil the thought of a stepped down bolt doesn't fill me with thoughts of strength as I thought it might introduce an area which was likely to shear.
The seats are great but the most important bit with a Puma and the bit I addressed first is rust. Take your car to a good bodyshop and have it looked at before you spend more money.
Barry
 
Hi Barry,
Yeah, my concern was shear force... just trying to figure out if it likely to be a significant extra factor in this application?

Aye, I need to get back under it, was quite good six months ago but need to check that still the case after being stood awhile...will get a chance while fitting the brakes I suppose :)
 
g-whizz said:
[post]358226[/post] Hi Barry,
Yeah, my concern was shear force... just trying to figure out if it likely to be a significant extra factor in this application?

Aye, I need to get back under it, was quite good six months ago but need to check that still the case after being stood awhile...will get a chance while fitting the brakes I suppose :)

If you really do fancy stepping down in size of those bolts, I would suggest to up their strength. I guess they are now 10.9 in tensile strength; for smaller ones I would go all the way to 14.9.
Having said that, one has to admit that the brakes were designed for much larger and heavier car (I guess ST170 is at least 250 kgs up on puma in terms of weight) and in puma they would have much easier life and the smaller bolts could indded prove to be adequate, buit since the risk of not being so is to great I would go for stronger bolts. It is only four of them you need, after all so it is not that big of an investment, especially if you factor in the need for purchasing drills needed...
 
:cool: good work catching the engine before it broke!

The brakes look much improved too, good luck with the fitting! I guess without knowing how much force is put on the bolts under heavy braking you'll not know whether stepping them is a good or bad idea.
 
red said:
[post]358238[/post] :cool: good work catching the engine before it broke!
The brakes look much improved too, good luck with the fitting! I guess without knowing how much force is put on the bolts under heavy braking you'll not know whether stepping them is a good or bad idea.
Cheers Red :eek:k:

...hmmm, so we got 2 nays (Barry and Ian) and 2 ayes (Wild E and the engineers) now re. the bolts...(and a Hong Kong Phooey style "coooould be" from Red :grin: ).... damn, don't leave it to me to decide guys, that's definitely a recipe for disaster :lol:

Anyone know about those ST170 anti-rattle clips, the stainless ones that usually go into the carriers.... are they now obsolete?

Re. Wild E's comment -
Wild E. Coyote said:
[post]358230
If you really do fancy stepping down in size of those bolts, I would suggest to up their strength. I guess they are now 10.9 in tensile strength; for smaller ones I would go all the way to 14.9.... It is only four of them you need, after all so it is not that big of an investment, especially if you factor in the need for purchasing drills needed...

Is there a 14.9? I thought 12.9 was the highest unless getting into some specialist alloys which I've not seen in caliper style bolts? I also assumed caliper bolts were already 12.9... if they are less normally* then even just going to 12.9 (or even better 14.9 if possible) would be a big help as shear forces are roughly 60% of tensile... so obviously if I can go up in tensile that will help offset/completely negate the stepdown. As to bits, I have three cobalt jobbies to do the M12 hole, nowt in between so cost of getting bolts or getting more bits about the same (£20 quoted to step down the 4 bolts) it's more an aversion to drilling the hubs if not strictly necessary.

*EDIT: Just rubbed down the bolts that came with the carriers (it's on the head of the bolt if you weren't aware) to reveal that they are 10.9, so going up to 12.9 or higher if possible will definitely help. Cheers Wild E. :eek:k:
 
Hi Greg
As far as I remember my ST170 fronts don't have the shims and they seem ok.
As for the fastening solution drilling out the hub carrier is definitely better but there is a third option you haven't thought of. How about your machine shop machining up a thin walled tube to exactly fit in the caliper carrier so that you can use the standard bolts (you may have to put a washer under the standard bolt head).
Barry
 
tuonokid said:
[post]358243[/post] Hi Greg
As far as I remember my ST170 fronts don't have the shims and they seem ok.
As for the fastening solution drilling out the hub carrier is definitely better but there is a third option you haven't thought of. How about your machine shop machining up a thin walled tube to exactly fit in the caliper carrier so that you can use the standard bolts (you may have to put a washer under the standard bolt head).
Barry
Cheers Barry re. shims info :eek:k: With regard to the other, I did consider a collar type thing as an option but the bolt is threaded into the carrier... so that would mean it having an internal thread to take the Puma's M10 bolt and an external thread to screw into the carrier's m12 sized aperture, with only an extra mm or two to play with wasn't sure if possible and even if so that seemed a more involved and a more fragile option that just having an m12 bolt machined down to M10 size after the carrier thread point... out of interest, anyone know for sure the thread size on these is it 1.75 or 1.5?
 
Sos Greg, I got my threads the wrong way round, another senior moment :) If my bumper's not spoken for and you come to collect I'll lend you the drill bits and you can post them back to me (as long as your drill has a big enough chuck.
Barry
 
tuonokid said:
[post]358248[/post] Sos Greg, I got my threads the wrong way round, another senior moment :) If my bumper's not spoken for and you come to collect I'll lend you the drill bits and you can post them back to me (as long as your drill has a big enough chuck.
Barry
:grin: I feel your pain... I have plenty these days, thankfully I'm getting so bad I forget all about them a few minutes later :lol:
Thanks for the offer too Barry... bumper dependent, I might well take you up on it if I go that route :eek:k:
 
Hi Greg
Another thing I forgot about :) when you swap to the bigger brakes you really need to have the brake hose bracket off the strut altered as unless it's extended out if will put a strain on your brake hose, you'll see what I mean if you mock it up.
Barry
 
tuonokid said:
Hi Greg
Another thing I forgot about :) when you swap to the bigger brakes you really need to have the brake hose bracket off the strut altered as unless it's extended out if will put a strain on your brake hose, you'll see what I mean if you mock it up.
Barry

Ooh, right... cheers for that tip Barry, I was just going to follow Steve's guide ( http://www.projectpuma.com/viewtopic.php?t=7991 ) which doesn't mention that... I might get a chance to see what you mean if I do end up coming over to pick up that bumper... and a few other tips I'm sure :)

Something I just noticed from Steve's guide, are the hub holes for the caliper M10 bolts threaded? They look it in Steve's guide but when subsequently drilled out to accept the M12's they then aren't as there is no mention of re-tapping them?
 
Hi Greg
I just had a look on Steve's post and they do look threaded but actually aren't. I think most people neglect to move the hose bracket but if you don't modify it you may find that the hose goes really close or rubs on the inner wings on full lock and the angle/location of the bracket puts a strain on the brake hose.
Barry
 

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