Battery Box

[paulob1]

not going to mention the highly useful supsension on go karts, ie NON. my gearbox kart can be geared to do around 140 mph, the new 250 karts as much as 160mph plus...not even fitted with differentials...
or the need for castor angle to ensure centralisation of the steering wheels...doh...not a lot to do with suspension, although it can affect the feel of the car through the steering wheel...

anyway have you ever felt the amount of movement on an f1 car suspension, its measured in millimeters...I have always wondered why they have it...I would have thought you could do it another way...

I guess innovation always meets with critics

but thats innovation...I never did listen to the motto if they dont do it then I shouldnt...

 

[phil185]

Im not going to argue, my post was more informative. I do have a little experience in competition cars (not karts) and from reading your earlier post on this thread regarding learning from those who have 'modifying skills' i tried to point out that its not a great idea. Im fully aware of the tiny suspension travel on an f1 car and the lack of suspension on a kart but the puma is neither of those. I can assure you it has been tried many times by both amateur trackday enthusiasts and multi million pound race teams but unfortunately it just does not work.

 

[ScubaSteve]

He should work for a race team, I hear they are needing a new designer for the Ferrari aero team, maybe you could advise they make there tubular chassis from cheap plastic at the same time, i heard if you paint it the colour of metal the stewards wont know the difference

 

[paulob1]

I rest my case....no real answers...

the difference between and unspring kart at 140 mph and a car at the same speed is?

NON, the dynamics are the same...values may be different but the laws of physics do not change for the size of the beast...(actually not totally true as quantum physics has some oddities) but thats an argument not meant for here..

peoples experiences are great heads ups, peoples views are their own and are not experiences...I like to hear of the former, peoples views well view away...doesnt hurt anyone.

Perhaps you havent noticed steve but all the suspension on the F1 cars is made of plastic...its called carbon fibre polymer...a composite material not metal, but plastic...I doubt you will find much metal int eh chassis of a formula one car...he ho, I know nothing...

 

[ScubaSteve]

I think you were taking the sarcasm a little to literally :| there's plenty of differences in karts to normal cars. Center of gravity, mass - try fitting an engine weighing a few hundred kg's to a go kart and see what happens, dimensions, drivetrain, steering mechanism, wheel size (going on your theory if we fit 4 inch wheels the car will handle better), power delivery.... road surface - have you even driven on a track and compared it to a go kart surface??

Go karts handle well around the track they are designed for tight corners and dead smooth surface, and they are still quite slidely but in that application you can use it to your advantage thats all part of karting, you start adding any weight to a kart and watch how uncontrollable it will become

I think you will find its you that doesnt have real answers, your argument is go karts dont have suspension, is that seriously what you consider a real answer? lets hear your real answers as to why, for example btcc cars run full suspension then?

If you want to go ahead and convert your car to solid suspension go ahead but il be the first to lol when your car spins wildly at the first corner and your battery in its cheap plastic box tears away and takes your head off

 

[ScubaSteve]

I still think you are trolling i had creditted you with enough intelligence to know that what you are suggesting is absurd

 

[phil185]

I rest my case....no real answers...

the difference between and unspring kart at 140 mph and a car at the same speed is?

NON, the dynamics are the same...values may be different but the laws of physics do not change for the size of the beast...(actually not totally true as quantum physics has some oddities) but thats an argument not meant for here..

You have not asked any questions.....

The differences are huge- the effect of the different mass of each and the resulting effects of this are massive- but as you say a forum isnt the place for a physics lesson.

You have answered one of the points you have made yourself regarding chassis design, f1 cars are designed to have a tiny amount of movemet in the chassis in certain directions to work with the suspension design, tyre design also comes into this.

The only way you can come close to making it work with a puma is to spaceframe it, and use the method that Lola used a few years ago, it was a carbon composite chassis with fixed wishbones that where designed to flex. I think the difficulty of adjusting the setup and the expense was the killing factor.

I could go on but your with your attitude it seems pointless, all i did was try to share some of my experience.

Out.

 

[paulob1]

IF anyone cares to read my original comment....I was wondering...

Steve came back with a good answer about sliding a lot and I think to a degree that is likely as karts do this all the time if you over cook them, takes good skill to keep them on the limit but not beyond. However with a solid suspension fixed ride height, aerodynamic devices will work better, especially those devices under the car...the biggest issue is driver comfort.. so like the lotus 88 banned even before it was raced because it was so clever, got around it by having two chassis, one so hard it did not move, ie that carrying the suspension wheels and brakes and aerodynamic aids...however on this was built a second chassis on softer springs etc that allowed for a much smoother ride for the driver...

so taking it a step further...build a solid suspension set up, fix your seat within a suspended chassis within the car and you have the best of both worlds...I wonder if it would work...it would have to be track only but i just wonder.

I dont know if it would work but I Wonder if it would. If anyone has any useful comments that may add to the discussion then lets her it but lets get something clear i am wondering not trolling for stupid comments or arguments, I am just wondering. so dont leave discuss...but in disucssion dont be afraid to be wrong..

 

[ScubaSteve]

Useful comment: no it wouldnt work, i dont need to do any research or any debate as racing teams who have invested millions have already done that

 

[paulob1]

ooh am wasting my time. No useful debate here...

 

[ScubaSteve]

you can only debate about something that is remotely sensible in the first place, otherwise its not a debate, its a nonsense and certainly doesnt really make a good debate.

Its like debating whether a wheel barrow would make a good track car because it has no suspension, do you think that would make a good debate? we can debate that if you want

 

[paulob1]

still got no logical or useful points to say...just drivel....

 

[ScubaSteve]

so what do you think? do you think it would improve the cars handling? having solid suspension?

 

[paulob1]

its impossible to answer because you then add words, like cheap box becomes cheap and flimsy, your words not mine, use 4 inch kart wheels your words not mine. I have already put my thoughts down...anyway another go...

suspension is designed to smooth out the bumps, and stop the car from vibrating itself to bits and to make it more comfortable for the drivers/occupants...
modern tyres will smooth out a good deal of the bumps and if you allow some flex in the chassis itself this will also help....modern anti vibration pads and locking nuts and wires will help reduce the risk of it falling apart, a simple suspended seat could make it acceptable for the driver. by doing this you have a fixed ride height, this could be very low indeed, you could then use ground effect very easily. I can see more reasons why it would work that why it would not...there must be difficulties but I cant see them...fixed suspension means permantnetly correct wheel alignment, correct wheel to track contact, (unless you go up on two wheels).

 

[ScubaSteve]

its impossible to answer because you then add words, like cheap box becomes cheap and flimsy, your words not mine, use 4 inch kart wheels your words not mine. I have already put my thoughts down...anyway another go...

suspension is designed to smooth out the bumps, and stop the car from vibrating itself to bits and to make it more comfortable for the drivers/occupants...
modern tyres will smooth out a good deal of the bumps and if you allow some flex in the chassis itself this will also help....modern anti vibration pads and locking nuts and wires will help reduce the risk of it falling apart, a simple suspended seat could make it acceptable for the driver. by doing this you have a fixed ride height, this could be very low indeed, you could then use ground effect very easily. I can see more reasons why it would work that why it would not...there must be difficulties but I cant see them...fixed suspension means permantnetly correct wheel alignment, correct wheel to track contact, (unless you go up on two wheels).

tyres will not smooth anything to any acceptable point, unless you fit massive profiles with small rims, in which case making things worse.

you point out solutions that make it comfortable for the driver, but we havent even overcome the problem that it will handle worse yet..

far better off rose jointing the suspenion if you are worried about lateral movement when cornering.
you are correct that there are problems, and you cant see them because you dont know what you are talking about

i refer an earlier question..how much track time have you actually had? as i cannot see it being much to suggest something so stupid in the first place

 

[evilrob]

Now now, ladies...

:-D

 

[paulob1]

here we go again you just cant keep it to the point...yet again no sensible answers...

dont like the message shoot the messenger..

you dont need high profiles buit you dont need solid tyres either.....the wheel stays where it is meant to be all the time 90 degrees to the track.....the flexing in the chassis will help to keep the car stable on seriously uneven parts on the track...

it means maximum contact with the track...

add sticky tyres, friction is a coefficient of the material used mulitplied by the mass of the vehicle. Then using aerodynamic means you can increase the mass without actually increasing the mass, ie downforce, and this will be increased using the ground effect now brought into play by fitting skirts to the sides and directing the air out of the car as fast as possible and causing a partial vacuum under the car. Good diffuser and maybe some exhuast plenum to asist... this will add cornering speed massively. you would need minimla extra power as the vaccuum effect under the car does not increase the drag coefficitent like a wing does and so the penalites are not so great. a win win situation. but then as steve says i know nothing...and my track knowledge is so important that it affects the abillity of the car to negotiate bends...

 

[Dal]

I think that's enough.