Couple of issues with new Puma

[Tonio]

Hi folks, just picked up 2002 1.6 Puma in silver. 72000 miles and almost zero rust aside from minor bubble on NSR wheel arch. I have 2 issues (so far). Perhaps the experts on here can help. First issue is the engine will only start after turn over on the 2nd or 3rd attempt. When it runs it’s perfect in that it doesn’t stall or anything it really is sweet, but if you turn off the ignition and leave for 5 minutes it takes the 2 or 3 attempts to start. Fuel sender??

Second issue. Yesterday the speedometer worked perfect while driving it home. All of a sudden it dropped to zero and now not working. I did drive through deep puddles as it rained very heavy so not sure if that caused any issue as it failed shortly thereafter. Maybe unrelated but though I’d mention it. Thankyou in advance.

 

[yippeekiay]

When you turn on the ignition, wait about 2 to 3 seconds before starting the engine so that the fuel pump can prime fully. You should be able to hear it buzzing so wait until it stops.
It may sound silly but mine did what yours is doing & it never happened again by simply waiting those few seconds before firing it up.
If I remember correctly it was the same for many people - and worked for them too.

As for the speedometer, I can't recall anything in my memory bank to help you

 

[Tonio]

When you turn on the ignition, wait about 2 to 3 seconds before starting the engine so that the fuel pump can prime fully. You should be able to hear it buzzing so wait until it stops.
It may sound silly but mine did what yours is doing & it never happened again by simply waiting those few seconds before firing it up.
If I remember correctly it was the same for many people - and worked for them too.

As for the speedometer, I can't recall anything in my memory bank to help you

Thanks for the heads up about the ignition. I did try that but the issue remains. Further investigation is needed I think.
As for the speedo, I think I may have found the issue.

 

[Tonio]

The problem with starting still remains arghhh!! I have an issue in as much as the car only starts after cranking it maybe 2 or 3 times. As mentioned above, when the engine does start it runs lovely, no stuttering or backfiring or anything like that. It drives absolutely fine and doesnt stall.
The car had been sitting for a while as far as I can tell. The seller told me the spark plugs had been changed (I'm yet to double check that).
I put some new petrol in it after purchase as it only had a 1/4 tank or less. I changed the fuel filter when I got home. When I emptied the old filter the colour of the fuel was not clean. It was a bit dark. Then when i checked later (post filter change) the fuel came out clear/fresh. Almost as if the fuel in the tank was old??
I can hear the fuel pump/sender in the rear engaging, could this be on its way out perhaps? even though I can hear it.
Im thinking/guessing I should change the fuel tank and put a new pump in, guessing that if there is old fuel and new fuel in there that it might be the issue?? God knows.
Anyway its over to the experts!!
Thankyou for reading this and I look forward to contributing as much as I can.

 

[yippeekiay]

If it was me I wouldn't worry about the age of the fuel (depending how long it's been sat as my RX8 has 3+ year old fuel & still starts fine) as you have put fresh in (I'm assuming you filled it up) which should fix any worries about that.

1. Is the fuel pump working? - yes, you can hear it
2. Is the fuel filter clean? - yes, you fitted a new one
3. Is the fuel actually getting to the injector rail ok? - simple check at the shrader valve (See Picture, it is the same as a car/bike tyre valve) on the injector rail. Undo blue cap (if present), unscrew inner pin or push it in when you have someone there to turn on the ignition (you can buy a cheap valve key for this or come up with something yourself to wind it out). Put pipe on it ( preferable) to catch any fuel. Then get someone to turn on the ignition (NOT start) and watch for the fuel coming out to see how long it takes - it should be pretty immediate.

Undo your spark plugs & check for a good spark & while you're at it ....
4. Check spark plug condition - something I always do when getting a new car - and replace if they look old. Check gaps if they are ok & refit.
5. Check HT leads - as above, I'd generally replace these anyway AND the spark plugs as cheap to do @ c£10+for a set of plugs & c£15+ for leads.

If you're still having problems then you're looking at many ways to spend your money (in no particulr order);-
6. Why not get a new coil too? - c£20+
7. fuel pump - c£80+ for a full assembly or c£20+ for just the pump itself
8. Injectors - c£75+ each (that sounds expensive)
(all prices were grabbed from the first online autoparts store I picked from my list just for an idea)

The list could go on & on but I'd be surprised if you needed to go this far - and if you did I'd be considering putting up with the starting issue before now as it's getting expensive

If anyone else can think of something I missed I'm sure they'll chip in

Good luck

 

[Tonio]

If it was me I wouldn't worry about the age of the fuel (depending how long it's been sat as my RX8 has 3+ year old fuel & still starts fine) as you have put fresh in (I'm assuming you filled it up) which should fix any worries about that.

1. Is the fuel pump working? - yes, you can hear it
2. Is the fuel filter clean? - yes, you fitted a new one
3. Is the fuel actually getting to the injector rail ok? - simple check at the shrader valve (See Picture, it is the same as a car/bike tyre valve) on the injector rail. Undo blue cap (if present), unscrew inner pin or push it in when you have someone there to turn on the ignition (you can buy a cheap valve key for this or come up with something yourself to wind it out). Put pipe on it ( preferable) to catch any fuel. Then get someone to turn on the ignition (NOT start) and watch for the fuel coming out to see how long it takes - it should be pretty immediate.
View attachment 10723
Undo your spark plugs & check for a good spark & while you're at it ....
4. Check spark plug condition - something I always do when getting a new car - and replace if they look old. Check gaps if they are ok & refit.
5. Check HT leads - as above, I'd generally replace these anyway AND the spark plugs as cheap to do @ c£10+for a set of plugs & c£15+ for leads.

If you're still having problems then you're looking at many ways to spend your money (in no particulr order);-
6. Why not get a new coil too? - c£20+
7. fuel pump - c£80+ for a full assembly or c£20+ for just the pump itself
8. Injectors - c£75+ each (that sounds expensive)
(all prices were grabbed from the first online autoparts store I picked from my list just for an idea)

The list could go on & on but I'd be surprised if you needed to go this far - and if you did I'd be considering putting up with the starting issue before now as it's getting expensive

If anyone else can think of something I missed I'm sure they'll chip in

Good luck

Thankyou so much for the suggestions. I will give this lot a try! Will report back

 

[Tonio]

Update on above issue. I changed HT leads, Spark Plugs, Coil Pack, Fuel Filter, Starter Motor, Secondhand Injectors, checked for spark (OK), cleaned MAF sensor.
Things I have not yet done are: Changed Battery, Changed Fuel Pump and Tank. I am yet to check fuel pressure at rail but I don't know how to do that. It is the 1.6 engine and there is no blue Schrader valve??
Attached is a video of what's happening.
Any further help would be so very much appreciated.
View attachment My Movie.mp4

 

[yippeekiay]

Ahh - sorry, mine was the 1.7 in the pictures. I have no idea about the 1.6.

 

[GreenEyedPuma]

Tonio,
Hi, I was going to suggest a low / dying battery might be causing starting issues, but I now see you've changed the battery, so presumably not!

When my old Puma's second ever battery got to 10 years old, one morning after only occasional use, it started, ran rough for about 3 seconds, then stopped and wouldn't restart. It turned over fine (making me think the battery was fine!) but after trying it a few times I gave up, using my other car as usual. I tried it again after returning home and after many tries and the starter now slowing down, I hooked up jump leads from my other car and bingo - it started straight away! I read afterwards that the Powertrain Control Module was quite susceptible to a low battery voltage so could cause starting problems if it was low.

In your case, if you have a new battery (and it's still charged up ok), could it be an earthing problem, causing poor signals from the various engine management sensors to the PCM? Have you checked the earthing strap from the back of the engine, above the exhaust manifold to the firewall (if your 1.6 is arranged the same as a 1.7)? From memory, I think there may also be an earthing point for the PCM on the inner sill by the passenger door. Any corrosion around that area and resulting poor earthing could possibly cause problems with the PCM. So many problems in cars can result from earthing problems, it may be worth trying to get hold of an earthing wiring schematic, with their relevant positions on the car body. That was available on the Ford TIS discs, but the one I had access to is unreadable now. Maybe other forum members can provide that diagram / locations?

Another thought is possibly the Crankshaft Position Sensor is starting to fail. From what I've read (my get of jail free clause! ) the PCM receives a signal from the CPS to confirm to it that the engine is ACTUALLY turning over, in order to fuel it to start.

Lastly, I had this problem with my 1.7 and the easiest way to get around it was to press the accelerator pedal about 1/4 to 1/2, whilst I turned the starter key. That way always seemed to work. The accelerator pedal really only adds more air to the engine through the throttle plate, whilst at the same time, the Throttle Position Sensor lets the PCM know what the driver is doing!

Sorry if this is a bit long and doesn't end up helping, but hopefully the longer winded and full part names may help anybody else researching similar problems in the future. Good luck tracking down the fault!

 

[Tonio]

Thankyou for taking the time to type out such a comprehensive reply. I’ll have a look for the earthing points this weekend I think. I have a crankshaft sensor in the post so hopefully it’s that. Thanks once again pal I really appreciate your insight.

 

[DOH]

Hi Tonio.
I have just read your posts. From your video, I would say it's actually cranking over slightly faster than normal. A cause of that would be low compression. Before continuing to swap out parts I recommend that you establish the cause.

1) So I recommend you get a long threaded 14mm adaptor for the compression tester and report back with your readings.
I have a 1.7 not a 1.6 , however from cold they should both start almost instantaneously with less than 1/4 throttle

2) The coolant sensor on a 1.7 screws into the head just below the coilpack ( you need to remove the coilpacks 4x 8mm bolts before removing the sensor).
The 1.6 maybe in the same place. That also instructs the ECU to add extra fuel on cold starts for a certain time period. Perhaps that's faulty. Is your temp gauge reaching "normal" i.e midway , when it's warmed up ?

3) Another cause of poor starting from cold is if someone's changed the timing belt and not timed it up properly. So when was that last changed?

4) The crankshaft sensor if like the 1,7 is located behind a protective spring steel shield at the front of the engine low down heading into the flywheel, I guess the 1.6 is located there too.
Have you tried removing the plug and spraying both the connector and the crank sensor contacts with electrical contact cleaner ?

 

[Tonio]

Hi Tonio.
I have just read your posts. From your video, I would say it's actually cranking over slightly faster than normal. A cause of that would be low compression. Before continuing to swap out parts I recommend that you establish the cause.

1) So I recommend you get a long threaded 14mm adaptor for the compression tester and report back with your readings.
I have a 1.7 not a 1.6 , however from cold they should both start almost instantaneously with less than 1/4 throttle

2) The coolant sensor on a 1.7 screws into the head just below the coilpack ( you need to remove the coilpacks 4x 8mm bolts before removing the sensor).
The 1.6 maybe in the same place. That also instructs the ECU to add extra fuel on cold starts for a certain time period. Perhaps that's faulty. Is your temp gauge reaching "normal" i.e midway , when it's warmed up ?

3) Another cause of poor starting from cold is if someone's changed the timing belt and not timed it up properly. So when was that last changed?

4) The crankshaft sensor if like the 1,7 is located behind a protective spring steel shield at the front of the engine low down heading into the flywheel, I guess the 1.6 is located there too.
Have you tried removing the plug and spraying both the connector and the crank sensor contacts with electrical contact cleaner ?

Hi mate. Thankyou for your reply.
Prior to that video I had just changed the starter motor to brand new. Perhaps that could be the reason it seems like its cranking faster.
I will check compression settings and report back at the weekend. thanks for that hint.
Re: timing belt. Ive no idea about when it was last changed if I'm being completely honest.
The engine temperature gauge sits bang on centre when it has warmed up. Never overheated.
I have some very good suggestions so far and I am extremely thankful to those who have replied so far.

 

[Tonio]

Tank out and pump change yesterday. Shocked to see split in outer rubber hose! There was a hole in the inner hose too. May explain some of my issues.
Tank in good condition with just surface rust. Inside seems fine.
Will treat and spray before re-installation. Removing tank was relatively straight forward. Removing the fuel clips however was a nightmare.
------------------
Tank back in today with new pump. Car now starts first time every time!!!

. So after a new starter motor, new maf sensor, new injectors, new spark plugs, new HT leads, new crankshaft position sensor, new filter it came down to the fuel pump after all which had a hole and split in the suction pipe. Im guessing there wasnt enough fuel being sent to the rail as the majority was being lost through the split in the hose before it exited the tank. Thanks to everyone who contributed suggestions. Ive learned how to remove and install a tank/pump and change injectors along the way. Im delighted its sorted and didn't give up on her.

 

[yippeekiay]

Glad it's fixed now. Shame you couldn't have checked the fuel flow to start with as I hoped you could. That'll teach you for not buying the 1.7 with the shrader valve on the fuel rail

 

[Tonio]

Glad it's fixed now. Shame you couldn't have checked the fuel flow to start with as I hoped you could. That'll teach you for not buying the 1.7 with the shrader valve on the fuel rail

Haha indeed! The car feels so much more responsive now too. I had the feeling it was lagging a bit when I pressed the accelerator pedal. That has now gone too. Next job is to replace air con compressor as soon as Ive found a spare.