iPhone 5

[XIIVVX]

Sorry, I'm not an Apple fanboi, I didn't relate 'Antennagate' and your posting to the widely publicised shortcomings of the 'phone' part of the i-Phone.

Obviously we are all very happy that your phone is exempt.

 

[evilrob]

Stuff is overpriced though

That depends on how much you value your time.

I was completely pro-Windows until I got a G4 Mac Mini in 2005 and realised that I had spent the previous decade spending more time actually setting up my computers than doing anything with them (hello autoexec.bat, config.sys getting your SoundBlaster to work with Catacomb 3-D, then several years of wasted hours under Windows waiting for antivirus scans, Adaware spyware scans, disk defrags to finish, uninstalling crapware, not to mention "plug and pray" every time you got a new device, or trying to figure out why what worked yesterday wasn't working today).

Ever since the first Pentiums came along I built my desktop machines myself generally (with quality components like Matrox Millennium graphics cards, Micron RAM and Quantum Fireball hard disks), and tended to sway towards Samsung laptops - last PC laptop I owned was the V25, which I liked so much I bought a spare. Then promptly sold them both when the Intel Macbook came out in 2006.

Similarly, I was pro-Android (I was unfortunate enough to get the first generation G1, followed by a Nexus One) until the iPhone 4 came along, and came to similar conclusions - that I had spent more time fucking about tinkering with Android, getting the bluetooth to work, getting the battery to last more than half a day, than actually using all of its "smartphone" capabilities.

With Apple there is a hefty upfront premium, for sure, but in my experience I reckon it pays dividends in terms of time/stress saved over the time you own and use the device and therefore excellent value for money. I took my Macbook out of its box five years ago, and have done nothing to it since except enjoy its consistent behaviour each and every time I reach for it, and the tens of thousands of pounds worth of paid work it has helped me create.

It's never put me in a situation where I was unable to get done what I needed to get done, it's never lost any data, or crashed and lost me any work, and for that, I think it was worth every god damn penny...

... I do miss my soul, though.

 

[evilrob]

Sorry, I'm not an Apple fanboi,

Neither am I - I am a fan of stuff that works, though. Having spent a lot of money on various computers and gadgets over the last 15 years that didn't *quite* do what I wanted (I was using Windows Mobile smartphones like the O2 XDA long before Android came along), I turn to Apple because I know it will do most of what I want it to do most of the time, moreso than the alternative devices.

I've made this judgement having been vehemently anti-Apple - I laughed along with the rest of the world when Steve Jobs suggested the notion that people might actually PAY to download MP3s back in 2001, then got straight back on Napster/eDonkey 2000/Limewire - that was until I actually got one of their computers (see above post) and found it to be better than what I was using before, even as a geekier-than-average PC user.

My Mac has never been to a Starbucks in its life, nor do I own a turtleneck sweater. I'm certain I don't fall into the typical mac user bucket.

I like computers. Apple build good ones. That's the beginning and end of it for me.

Obviously we are all very happy that your phone is exempt.

I've yet to meet another iPhone user (of which there are many - "flocks" of them, apparently) who has experienced any of the "widely publicised shortcomings".

 

[Dal]

Good job the engineering industry doesn't work on Mac platforms though as none of the 4 major 3D design packages I've used (Solidworks / Catia / Inventor / Pro Engineer) will not run on them. I've seen (and used) Inventor on a windows partition on a Mac and it was marginally faster than a zx80 I had.

You'd have thought they would have engineered (excuse the pun) the programmes to run on the Mac platform if it was as good (and better than pc / windows) as Mac users claim.

:?:

 

[Voa]

Good job the engineering industry doesn't work on Mac platforms though as none of the 4 major 3D design packages I've used (Solidworks / Catia / Inventor / Pro Engineer) will not run on them. I've seen (and used) Inventor on a windows partition on a Mac and it was marginally faster than a zx80 I had.

You'd have thought they would have engineered (excuse the pun) the programmes to run on the Mac platform if it was as good (and better than pc / windows) as Mac users claim.

:?:

Good point same argument about Mac servers , mac based data storage I have never touched anything mac related in my datacenter / storage work not even sure what apple use in there datacenter in the US.

Macs use basically a form of unix (linux as well) which is the back bone of most key systems in IT. I am not getting into a this is better then that argument as each system has it's uses .....

 

[Dal]

But then I expect it's the old supply and demand argument.

 

[Voa]

Things are changing m8 as microsoft are making big in roads into datacenter cloud technologies with azure, hopefully most services will be "cloud" based making the end device more redundant. Trouble is microsoft have experienced some major loss of data with some services I am not a fan of most cloud based services having been at the thick end of issues ......

 

[Neil]

I've yet to meet another iPhone user (of which there are many - "flocks" of them, apparently) who has experienced any of the "widely publicised shortcomings".

^ What he said. Nobody I know has had any issues, and all of them don't use the specially designed case either.

The only reason I bought this crappy HP laptop last month is because I couldn't afford a MacBook Pro. I'm already regretting the decision as the build quality on this thing is dismal. I had to reattach the keyboard straight out of the box. I can't see this lasting much more than a few years either. My old Sony Vaio lasted about three years (and two detachments) before it was utterly shagged.

OK, I might class myself as a fanboy, but that's just because the products just seem better designed, and just 'work'. The fact they're also very pretty is secondary.

 

[evilrob]

Good job the engineering industry doesn't work on Mac platforms though as none of the 4 major 3D design packages I've used (Solidworks / Catia / Inventor / Pro Engineer) will not run on them. I've seen (and used) Inventor on a windows partition on a Mac and it was marginally faster than a zx80 I had.

You'd have thought they would have engineered (excuse the pun) the programmes to run on the Mac platform if it was as good (and better than pc / windows) as Mac users claim.

:?:

I use virtualisation software to run some Windows-only applications I need from time to time, or for testing web applications in different environments (XP/Vista/7, different versions of IE, Flash etc.), or for testing Excel models on different versions of Excel (2003/2007/2010) for cross-version compatibility, as different versions of Office don't play nice together on the same machine - that way I have the best of both worlds; the stability of Mac OS and I can fire up Windows in a window much faster than it would take to boot up a real PC, and close it immediately again when I'm done, as if the whole Windows operating system were an application. If Windows starts dicking about, I don't need to troubleshoot - I can just revert back to a "fresh install" at the touch of a button.

VMWare Fusion:
http://www.vmware.com/products/fusion/overview.html

I know you can virtualise from a Windows-based PC as well, of course, but I like the Mac OS X stability - as voa pointed out, it's based on a UNIX kernel so is rock solid. I know that even if Windows starts playing up - it won't cause the rest of my machine to crap out. I can just bin it and start on a fresh "virtual PC".

I imagine intensive CAD under virtualisation would be intolerably slow, but if you had a decent spec Mac and a Bootcamp partition where you reboot into Windows and run natively, it should perform exactly as it would on an equivalent spec PC - as hardware-wise, Macs and PCs are essentially the same now.

There's a guy running Catia on a 2009 iMac via Bootcamp in this vid, seems to run OK to me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssM08yEmT8k

 

[Dal]

Catia might run ok like that but try to run it with my 100000+ complex part model assembly of a complete industrial processing system and it'd grind to a halt. Where the PC gains for CAD is it's ability to configure it perfectly for the application - hence my workstation with 24GB RAM and 2GB graphics card designed and certified by Dassault Systèmes for complex CAD models.

Mac can't do that as far as I'm aware. But then these software companies design for the majority of purchasers I expect.

 

[evilrob]

You can buy ridiculous spec Macs to meet any application if you have very deep pockets - 12 Cores (2 x 2.93ghz Xeon), 64Gb RAM and 2 x 1Gb Radeon 5770 graphics cards:

http://store.apple.com/uk/configure/Z0M4?select=select&product=Z0M4

Not certified by Dassault Systèmes, though. And absurdly expensive.

Anyway, we've digressed - my point was:

I've bought/built/fixed many PCs, I've had several Macs, I've had Windows Mobile and Android phones, I've had an iPhone. I feel I've experienced enough of the available technologies to determine what meets my needs best regardless of how "cool" those technologies may be.

What got my goat was the "iSheep" and "Apple fanboi" tags being thrown around - as though the moment you buy a product with the Apple logo on, you're immediately considered to be a dribbling idiot or hipster poseur. The sheep label in particular pisses me off as of the millions and millions of computers in the world, Apple computers only represent a 10% market share. The rest being predominantly Windows-based PCs. So, statistically speaking, who's the "sheep"?

You're an industrial designer, you have a custom PC rig which smashes out a billion polygons in the blink of an eye and that works for you - that's brilliant. I'm not about to accuse you of being a "Windows fanboi" or a "sheep" - you have specific requirements, you evaluated the available technologies and you purchased a computer to meet those requirements.

I did the same thing, and I bought a Mac. Why does that make me an iBellend in so many people's eyes?

 

[yippeekiay]

Great debate going on here and quite valid points from both sides. Unfortunately and no offence meant but in my usual and simple style all I have to say is.....

Baaaaaaaaa

 

[Dal]

the sheep comment is aimed at those who buy apple products without even trying them first and so "following the herd of sheep" it seems to happen more with apple products than any other.

 

[evilrob]

 

[Dal]

that should be in the random thread!
My sheep comment was aimed at the people that want to buy an iphone 5 without even seeing it. But these kind of debates always turns into non apple fans making fun and apple fans defending. C'est la vie.

 

[evilrob]

I don't consider myself an Apple fan - I'm just a technology whore! When I was shopping for a tablet computer for the coffee table, I had every intention of buying a Blackberry Playbook, but I tried one and didn't like it (seems you need a Blackberry phone to match to get the best out of it), so I got a refurbished first-gen iPad for considerably less and it serves its purpose admirably.

It just gets on my tits when people jump on the Apple-bashing bandwagon - for every person who buys an Apple product purely on the basis of clever marketing rather than rational evaluation, there's two saying that all Apple products are shit despite never having owned one.

 

[evilrob]

I'm not above taking the piss, either - their adverts make me cringe just as much as the next guy.

Here's my parody:

I'm especially pleased with the "turd with a bite taken out" Apple logo pastiche.

 

[XIIVVX]

...there's two saying that all Apple products are shit despite never having owned one.

Just to clarify my position

I don't think all Apple products are shit. I own an iPod, a great piece of kit.

My antipathy is based on being in control of budgets in advertising agencies for far too long. The creative fairies 'had to have' Macs or they felt their entire self worth was undermined, despite the fact the IT guys proved time and time again that we could get more performance for less by buying Windows/PC alternatives. However back then Windows was a lot more unstable, and losing work because some idiot design-child hadn't saved as he/she went along was a big worry.

But then, despite all rumours to the contrary, Macs do fail, and when they do the costs are eyewatering. A PC could be fixed and up and running for fourpence, Macs required specialist support with call-out charges and incredible spares costs. (I recall in the days when a PC mouse with three buttons and scroll wheel was a tenner, a replacement, single button Apple mouse was around £70)

All I have seen of the iPhone is that it is a great little pocket computer and music player strapped to a pretty crap phone.

Me? I chose on the basis of the software I need (In my case aviation navigation) and buy the best phone to run it. That is not the Apple product.

 

[Voa]

I believe sheep phone 5 was what "Dal" was referring to lol , tbh with so many people having iPhone's sometimes it makes me embarrassed to use my iphone hence keeping it in a nondescript case lol.

To be honest evilrob if Lion is mac's attempt to innovate on the OSX platform then they might be going in the wrong direction as it seems to be a resource hog!!!!.

Out of interest I tried out windows 8 on a laptop I have spare which doesn't meet the latest spec and was impressed how efficiently it ran - although I couldn't understand what the new interface was all about guess it is some tie into cloud based technologies and touch based technologies on some new hardware which will be released in 3-4 years time.

I appreciate Mac products from a technical and engineering aspect because unfortunately I work in the crap industry so have to use these products every day , windows idiosyncrasies adds a layer of stress to my everyday stress caused by my job !!!!! lol

 

[Voa]

...there's two saying that all Apple products are shit despite never having owned one.

Just to clarify my position

I don't think all Apple products are shit. I own an iPod, a great piece of kit.

My antipathy is based on being in control of budgets in advertising agencies for far too long. The creative fairies 'had to have' Macs or they felt their entire self worth was undermined, despite the fact the IT guys proved time and time again that we could get more performance for less by buying Windows/PC alternatives. However back then Windows was a lot more unstable, and losing work because some idiot design-child hadn't saved as he/she went along was a big worry.

But then, despite all rumours to the contrary, Macs do fail, and when they do the costs are eyewatering. A PC could be fixed and up and running for fourpence, Macs required specialist support with call-out charges and incredible spares costs. (I recall in the days when a PC mouse with three buttons and scroll wheel was a tenner, a replacement, single button Apple mouse was around £70)

All I have seen of the iPhone is that it is a great little pocket computer and music player strapped to a pretty crap phone.

Me? I chose on the basis of the software I need (In my case aviation navigation) and buy the best phone to run it. That is not the Apple product.

I think the Mac v PC maintenance cost is slowly dropping , the "down time" when a creative person who needs a computer and the computer crashes due to software or hardware issues can't really be measured .......

I think the advertising industry latched onto Mac products because of initially the design but have realised that the products actually experience less down time and hence required less support people to support the computer environment.

This might be a controversial view but the IT budgets are being seen in more recent times as an unnecessary but high expenditure hence outsourcing.....