Queries for S1600 panelled rally build and MSA logbook

[Damian.H]

Hi, i'm hoping a bright soul on here may be able to help me with the above. I'm about to start building a Puma rally car. Always fancied an S1600 / 1400 Challenge car, so am wanting to go down that route. I have the VK1400 Ford build book (thanks Jacko!) and have been looking at what bits to use.

I have been to Magnum Motorsport and can get the panels (bumpers, wings and rear quarters) from them. They supplied panels to R.E.D amongst others when they ran Niall McShea in the British championship, and have the Ford tooling and part numbers etc.

I've been through the Blue book and have spoken to MSA scrutineers, one of whom was involved at Boreham with the original cars. The problem seems to be that the car must be homologated (which the standard Puma was i believe) and how i fit the rear quarters. Wings and bumpers are permitted to be changed to composite materials, so they're ok.

Does anyone know how the originals fitted? Is the body modified underneath or do they just bond over the panel? I will be getting bridging pieces between the panels, but do the arches need modifying? As i don't believe the shell strength will be compromised i can't see a problem..and they could be classed as whell arch extensions i suppose. He didn't seem too hopeful, i must admit....

The car itself will be a 1.7, mildly modified, with various suspension mods for the wider track. Nothing fancy or in the league of the S1600/1400 cars! I would eventually like a 2.0 Duratec or similar but that seems to be a no-no according to the regs!

Any help or advice on how the original shells had the quarters fitted re: shell modifications.if any would be greatly apreciated!!!!

Thanks in advance!

 

[Flying Scotsman]

Simple extension plates for the body panels, that they are.

It seems strange that youre bothered about homologation and yet youre just going to keep a 1.7 lump in it...?

 

[Damian.H]

Because to get it MSA logbooked i have been led to believe i can only use homologated panels as the MSA seem to be leaning toward production based cars. I see the panels as wheel arch extensions permitted as per (R)48.1.3 but they seem unsure for some reason. I just don't want to start and find i'm doing somethi ng non-permitted...i'm sure you understand!

 

[Damian.H]

I am basically going to build a S1600 lookalike bodied 1.7 single venue car, nothing fancy mechanically, just a budget bit of fun that i will wheel out occasionally on local rallies. Sorry if it sounded like i was going for a full-on works car! If only..!

 

[Flying Scotsman]

Okay, you dont need homologation just for single event rallies and if you stick with the 1.7, youre in the class with 2ltr engines... consider a 1.6
I was going to do the same thing, but for more than just a bit of fun. You don't need s1600 panels just to compete.

And if its just a log book youre after, it seems a rather waste of money for a book.

 

[Damian.H]

You're missing the point. I don't need the panels to compete, I have always wanted to rally one. I don't fancy a standard arched car, I'd go for a Clio 172 instead. As for capacity, i will never have the money to win my class. 1.6's tend to cost more. The main reasons are cost and I can use wider wheels over 1600cc.

 

[Flying Scotsman]

Oh don't get me wrong, go for it.. ive started the same thing... I went for the wide arch too, didnt fancy the standard either.

 

[Damian.H]

It's been a couple of years since I built a car and competed!

 

[rallycraig]

Hi, I have built and rallied many cars, the puma is long out of homoligation, so you don't need the correct kit to get an msa logbook on it.
If you were building a new S2000 fiesta for example, you would need the correct arches. If you built one in 15 years time, a replica kit would suffice for clubman rallying.

 

[Damian.H]

I know, it's just the new msa rules are aimed at limited modifications and are more production orientated. I need it to be in cat.1 so it's easier to get logbooked.

 

[warrenpenalver]

speak to chris birbeck. They bought all parts and tooling off ford when ford stopped supporting cars. They also support several rally pumas so will know all about building them to regulations.

 

[Flying Scotsman]

speak to chris birbeck. They bought all parts and tooling off ford when ford stopped supporting cars. They also support several rally pumas so will know all about building them to regulations.

If you can ever get hold of him...

 

[paulob1]

Hmmif your paying him moeny he will talk to you, Chris has all the parts from the rally cars, he knows the engines and pumas very well...one thing he always told me to do with the pumas was make sure they are warm before you rag them...I know good advice on any car but he was very specific about the pumas as they can damage the bottom ends easily if you run them hard when cold.
the problem with fitting wider arches is that the parts to get the wheels to fill the arches can be expensive.

on the s1600 it extends the rear beams by using an independant set up, it adds at least 4 maybe 5 inches to the rear over a std puma, not sure of the exact amount but someone will likely correct me on here..you can i suppose do it with a std puma by adding 30mm wheel mounting extensions then using wider wheels and wheel spacers, but its getting a bit lairy i would think and on a rough road prone to failures.
the front is even more tricky...
the whole suspension set up is different with added and extended suspension points and a further 4 or 5 inches wider than a std car. the hubs the brakes the suspenion struts the drive shafts the lower wishbones are all different, all mostly alloy...it is a very clever and neat set up but adds a lot of money to the car...

 

[Damian.H]

Yes, that's all true. But the 1400 used a standard beam with axle spacers, as I intend to. It will be used only on smooth single venue stuff, can't afford forest events!
Front is do-able with various parts. I just loved them back in the day. There was one on the NW Stages this year, still a pleasure to watch!
Having re-read and re-re-read the Blue book I reckon I can class the rears as wheel arch extensions and am free to modify the body for the purpose of fitting wider wheels.
Just after clarification from my local scrutineer in case they ain't happy!

 

[warrenpenalver]

Paulob1 you have to remember the S1600 kits were £100k back in the day. The works cars which had even more mods were even more. They competed in the JWRC back in the day which was second only to the WRC.

You just have to look at the S1600 parts to see many are custom CNC'd parts with hand engraved 909 numbers!

The only "cheap" way to widen the fronts is using FRP stuff and beef it up for rallying then use wierd offsets to fill the arches. The rear is dead easy as the 1400 used large spacers which were tied to the beam as well as bolted.

 

[jacko]

im betting on the rear arches being held on with pop rivets, sealant and some body filler! i'll put a mars bar on it!

 

[Damian.H]

Magnum recommend sunken pop rivets for easy replacement, skimmed over with filler. Just hope the scrutineers arnt arsey about then being classed as extensions and not purely cosmetic

 

[phil185]

It makes no odds how they are held onto the car, it would only have made a difference if the homologation was in date and you wanted to run in an fia titled championship. As long aa the arches are no bigger than that of the frp then it is not an arch extension.

To put your mind at rest speak to your local scrutineer who will be logbooking your car.

 

[Damian.H]

They will be the bigger S1600 / 1400 BRC challenge size arches. Just had confirmation back from my local-ish scrutineer that my plans are ok. So logbooking should be sorted. Obviously pending the safety and quality of the build!
The only thing they are strict on is the fact I need to use a S1600 rear spoiler due to size issues. You are not allowed to just stick any old spoiler on a car anymore. He's sent me some diagrams etc from the homologation papers with the exact measurements and photos. Great guy, he was involved with Boreham and the great Rob Arthur in the original cars and various Ford championships so knows his stuff!!!
If anyone's interested, I will stick some pics up and pick your brains!

 

[paulob1]

the arches are wider than an frp and didnt someone on here say that his car once fitted with the rally puma bits was on the absolute limit of width for some scrutineer, cant remember which one...but someone may do...

As I said above to fill the arches of the kit car you will need at least 4 or 5 inches of extra width over a std car...you may find this difficult, the alloy spacers, a la FRP I have 40 mm extensions and they just about fill the FRP arch, put a wheel extension on that and you are getting close, but cant imagine it would be overly durable.

I repeat the front is even more difficult with frp parts you will be at least 40 to 60 mm per side short of the width of the kit cars, so the kit car arches to some extent will be pointless...you would be better with std frp wings rather than the kit car wings.

a rally kit car done for track days with all the right gear will cost around 45k-50k if built from scratch by Chris, and he knows how to build them, you can buy one ready to go with a 1600 engine for around 25-30k you can buy the odd four wheel drive cossie one for about 50k. but as I have said before this is serious money for a toy..that you will break and you will need to spend good money on...If I remember rightly the suspension parts amount to around 6-8k for a full set up...but I cant find my quote so dont try to stick me to that...