to wing or not to wing...that is the question and which one

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Perhaps a better investment than side skirts and wings, would be some driving tuition? Plenty of schools around offering competition driving tuition - they do however vary in tuition quality :(, look for a place with instructors with credible results themselves, and who are used by professionals (I used to beat several "instructors" on a regular basis), There are plenty of places setup mainly to pay for the proprietors hobby, and mainly offering courses as a "experience day". Unfortunately Its not a market Ive looked into for many years, and the guy I used has passed on now.

Coming from a rallying background as I do, Sliding was a way of life, when rallying you dont drive as fast as you can and wait for the car to slide and see where it goes, YOU take charge, and you set up the slide before you even get to the corner. I never really used to care how a car handled up to the point where it lost traction I cared about how well it handled once past the point of normal traction.

When you get used to how to instigate and direct a slide you shouldnt really get caught out... Some of the more important techniques in a FWD car include Left Foot braking and scandinavian flicks (Ive seen some REALLY REALLY WEAK interpretations on the idea - a good scandinavian flick can be used as far more than just a method to get a bit sideways) Some concepts are harder to teach and require experience as well as the theory. Money spent on the puma can only possibly improve the pumas performance, money spent on the driver improves every car you will ever drive!

Of course if you have an aversion to sliding then you can do an advanced drivers course, the car handling system they teach is designed to slow you down to the point where you should never lose traction. They are deliberately designed to allow even the least talented individual to not be "caught out" whilst making "fair progress". (I personally love their road craft reading the road ahead side of things - which I think should be part of the basic driving tuition).

Whilst I couldnt recommend their course as the basis for optimum performance, I do think its great for keeping people safe at a moderately fast pace regardless of talent. I remain 100% convinced that for those with a natural affinity for the feel of a car that less orthodox techniques including those involving a lack of traction can be both far faster and have potentially better safety margins however they do require more from the driver.

That said I believe hill climbers, sprinters and some roundy boys have quite an aversion to sliding around, I have no idea what things are like on track days etc.
 
losing traction on public roads is not ideal but understanding how the car goes must be great.
 
paulob1 said:
losing traction on public roads is not ideal but understanding how the car goes must be great.

I assumed if you were thinking of skirts and wings etc that you were talking about track use. On the public roads it should be rare that traction loss becomes an issue. When you understand how to provoke traction loss you understand a lot about how to avoid it as well! But if it does happen and you have the training and experience to handle it, it becomes far less of an issue. Without a doubt I feel my competition driving history gives me far more tools to make me safer on the public road, without having to be coming round every corner sideways :lol:. I also find that having competed for real slows me down on the roads, although that could just be age. I just dont feel the need to really blast it around on the roads.

If you are having trouble on the public roads, check your tracking, bushes, maybe replace shocks and springs etc and get some good tyres.
 
I dont have trouble I have fun...and want more of it, but now I am heading into nitrous power and turbo power I am just keen to make the car that bit faster and more glued to the ground. Modern tyres do not work well beyond traction, unless you have comp tyres fitted. I prefer glued to sliding, only becuase its what I have been used to...when they go sliding my mouth gets very dry..I once found myself sideways in a car at triple digit speed once, very very scary, exhilerating but once is enough...prefer glued to the road...

suppose I would benefit from some rally experience, sending my boys to Chris Burbeck for a days tuition perhaps I should tag along, ... but never been keen on it, too many trees, I take my ex military stuff off road but thats a leisurely type of driving. even so lost traction means 20 plus tons of military vehicle stuck and tha can be fun recovering them, but thats a whole other side of driving...

Still talking to chris about him building me a track day tool out of a puma ss1600 with an 1800 duratec engine and sequential box, air suspension . with around 230-260 bhp it should be a fun little car, 800 kg all up weight, but its not cheap...and I have seen a lot of 4x4 pumas with cosworth engines that offer 525 plus BHP, for about the same money.... now that would be a tool for the track...scary I would think. Far too fast for my skills but still fun...
 
warrenpenalver said:
getting it well sideways and being out of control are too different things. And TBH in the wet you have too little traction for any aero to make any significant contribution.

once you know the car well you can put it where you want with practice. In the navy i used to slide it with lift off oversteer into my named parking space everyday and with practice i got it between the white lines every time. Its all about knowing the limits of the car.


totally agree here... I had the FRP sideways the otherday whilst out for a spirited drive but I know where to put it and how to control it after a year an a half drivng her daily, definately always good to know the limits :)

As for the wing thats personal choice, I have a small but subtle spoiler on mine - only for cosmetic reasons and that it was already fitted to the car when I bought it :), I like it though; think it finishes the back off nicely!
 
sounds good, they can look really good with the right spolier but I am really interested in improving the performance overall. More downforce is my plan, in the rain in the dry whatever the conditions. The down force will work at all speeds but its effectiveness is relative.

I think side skirts, full underbody panels and a rear difuser will improve the cars handling ...just got to make it all fit together in a sensible way,,,cannot really seeing it being overly effective on-road more for track days but i will look into it...the rear wing will be part of the plan but not yet convinced I can apply the same loading front and back to keep the handling mostly the same...
 
dtq said:
Perhaps a better investment than side skirts and wings.....

A sensible and thoughtful post. Well worth reading several times by anybody who thinks aftermarket side skirts are anything but cosmetic.
 
I am not thinking of simplistic cosmetic fibreglass made side skirts, but ones fitted to lotus racing cars in the 80's before they were banned, they made cornering speeds too high...they worked then they will work now.....also going to try a couple of little ideas that i will keep to myself for now....will see if they work first..
 
The sideskirts fitted to racing cars are developed as an integral part of an entire aerodynamics suite, usually after extensive wind tunnel testing by teams of skilled and qualified aerodynamicists. They also have the advantage of not needing to cope with 'sleeping policemen' and other road-car hazards

I genuinely doubt that knocking up something that looks a bit like them and hanging them off the side of a Puma will achieve much, but am totally prepared to be proved wrong.

Let us know how you get on.
 
Grins...

As I said previously I am perfectly happy to be proved wrong, however aerodynamics is a very complex science and I remain to be convinced that a workable solution can be found by trial and error.

Time will tell.
 
as i said before cynic...but I am only teasing....if my track day car ever gets to the track you will see, aerodynamics are simplisitc, just follow bernoullis theorum and you wont go far wrong.....wind tunnels can show practically, what one can only theorise about, the theory of aerodynamics is mostly invented, the application is always trial and error... thats why we use wind tunnels...they help tweek the ideas...help show where improvements can be made, they are the trial and error of the business of aerodynamics... so you see you have answered your own question....trial and error is the only way...
 
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