Brian'
Member
Oeeeffff. The project has officially started! Goodluck with it :wink: - Really looking foward the the progress. Looks good so far, How bad was the underbody rust, were there holes or no problems at all?
2.1 Zetec Turbo - The Yella' Fella' (Videos and Dyno pg7)
- Thread starter Davedrave
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The project has indeed begun. I look forward to being able to post more pictures and updates as time progresses too. Should be interesting to see how it all changes and pans out over the course of the next 4-6 weeks.
Underneath the car was structurally all intact, no holes one some surface rust and a small amount of rot which was cured before it got serious.
Underneath the car was structurally all intact, no holes one some surface rust and a small amount of rot which was cured before it got serious.
No, we actually spoke with Chris and then decided that because of the size of the GT3076, it might be a bit too big and a bit too laggy and with what other people have said across this forum and others, I decided to go with the GTX to get some responsiveness out of the engine!
Thanks mate, hopefully today Chris is mounting the engine and finishing the prep of the engine bay.
Thanks mate, hopefully today Chris is mounting the engine and finishing the prep of the engine bay.
PumaNoob
New member
Looks like good progress mate, it's exciting seeing the pistons fitted and engine back in one piece, its well under way now!!
I think you've made a good choice on the turbo, as long as you can do progressive boost with gear change, but I think Ryan's suggestion of a GT3071r would have been the perfect compromise between power and response . When I had the GT3076 on a 2.0, it retracted from the response and the fun. And mine is custom, with a custom T25 turbine housing machined to take a full size T3 wheel, so spool up in theory should be quicker then a standard GT3076.
Because the Zetec is fairly restrictive unless the head is modified HEAVILY, having a turbo that makes all it's power high up is counter productive because where the Zetec is ready to make power, the turbo isn't, & then when the turbo is ready to make power, the engine has run out of flow. But me and Aaron (Bentleya) went for a drive in my car the other day, and anything more then 50% throttle in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd and it just spins the wheels, & that's with a head that flows very well, and a laggier turbo (ok it is a slightly bigger engine too), but yours will be more responsive so having a smaller turbo without progressive control might be tricky.
You may be able to sacrifice some of the low down torque for high end power and make things more progressive with some slightly bigger cams, and retarding them a little.
I think you've made a good choice on the turbo, as long as you can do progressive boost with gear change, but I think Ryan's suggestion of a GT3071r would have been the perfect compromise between power and response . When I had the GT3076 on a 2.0, it retracted from the response and the fun. And mine is custom, with a custom T25 turbine housing machined to take a full size T3 wheel, so spool up in theory should be quicker then a standard GT3076.
Because the Zetec is fairly restrictive unless the head is modified HEAVILY, having a turbo that makes all it's power high up is counter productive because where the Zetec is ready to make power, the turbo isn't, & then when the turbo is ready to make power, the engine has run out of flow. But me and Aaron (Bentleya) went for a drive in my car the other day, and anything more then 50% throttle in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd and it just spins the wheels, & that's with a head that flows very well, and a laggier turbo (ok it is a slightly bigger engine too), but yours will be more responsive so having a smaller turbo without progressive control might be tricky.
You may be able to sacrifice some of the low down torque for high end power and make things more progressive with some slightly bigger cams, and retarding them a little.
PumaNoob said:
Maybe that is a tell that your tyres could be better
?Nah, I just think your engine is simply to good to be true
PumaNoob
New member
Wild E. Coyote said:PumaNoob said:
Maybe that is a tell that your tyres could be better
Nah, I just think your engine is simply to good to be true
Lol nah, you were right the first time, the tyres need upgrading mate!!
zinc2000
Active member
Love the pictures.....now dribbling on keyboard :!: :!:
Mind you that could just be my age :-(
Looking good :thumbs:
Mind you that could just be my age :-(
Looking good :thumbs:
PumaNoob said:
Hello mate, thanks for your comments! Love how you have taken an already fairly decent turbo and made it your own, proper tuner style.
Your car sounds like a bit of an animal then! Do you have progressive boost on your car then or not? My head has been very nicely ported and polished so I'm hoping that should make it flow nicely. I'm not sure what we are doing with regards to the cams but I know we are having some new ones from somewhere - must find out the spec and more info from Chris. I'm going down the Emerald K6 route so will have the ability to have gear dependant boost, not sure what is needed to have it set up but I will be making some phone calls to Richard @ Redline Tuning on Monday to see if any specific sensors are needed (or maybe if anyone knows on here what I will need to set it up you could tell me in advance?
) I'm going to limit the boost in 1st across all 3 maps, limit the boost in 2nd for the middle and high boost map and then I think I may be okay for full boost in 3rd gear - I have a heavier engine than you so in theory, more weight over the front wheels should help? For the time being, I'm going to stick with my standard 7x17 wheels and run some 215 width Yokohama AD08R tires which should also help. However, I have been considering either 7.5x17 wheels with 225 tires or 8x17 wheels with 235 tires on but I have been doing some of my own research and now come to realise that actually this may not be such a good idea. The problem I have is my wheels are ET34 offset and not the ET28 offset we will need for the FRP bodykit. Am I right in thinking that simply adding some spacers to the wheels all round reduces the offset?
zinc2000 said:
Thanks Zinc, looking forward to having the next lot of pictures through and up on here.
PumaNoob
New member
I'm on my 4th set of cams now lol, the spec all depends how you like your power delivery, & unfortunately it's not a "1 size fits all so it will be trial and error for you I'd imagine.
My ECU has a function to allow gear dependant boost gontrol, but there is no switch for the ECU to know what gear you are in. You could do it based on RPM vs load if your ECU has the capability, but that's still not the best way to do it and I don't think the source code for Emerald is openly available. With Megasquirt you can make a custom INI file that you programme into the ECU and it will make all the calculations for you. So I could write something like this:
5th gear = True : RPM/44.7=Speed (MPH)
4th gear = True : RPM/58.38= Speed (MPH)
3rd gear = True : RPM/77.85= Speed (MPH)
Ect ect. That means the ECU knows that if RPM divided by 44.7 equals the MPH speed input, then it must be in 5th gear. I'd be able to write in a 'plus' or 'minus' 5mph buffer too incase of slight variation in wheel size or tyre pressures ect but then the ECU knows what gear I'm in. But I don't have enough outputs on mine to allow me to have althat calculation limit boost, although I may be able to remove some unwanted options to write it into the code.
But either way, I'm not sure Emerald would give you the source code to allow you to write something like that in, they may already have something like that in it.
The other mechanical way to do it would be to make a 'H' gate type thing that slides over your gear stick and has contact points that are inputs to your ECU. Then you earth the stick and when it contacts the point on the gate, it earths it out and the ECU knows what gear it's in that way.
But as standard, the only gear to have a switch is the reverse light.
With regards to tyres, I have 235's on et15 wheels. They are too wide to get full lock, but it's the outside that rubs not the inside so if you had an ET25 wheel tht might give you enough clearence. Mine is lowered all the way down on Gaz coilovers too, so if you lifted it up a little you are more likely to get the clearence you need.
My ECU has a function to allow gear dependant boost gontrol, but there is no switch for the ECU to know what gear you are in. You could do it based on RPM vs load if your ECU has the capability, but that's still not the best way to do it and I don't think the source code for Emerald is openly available. With Megasquirt you can make a custom INI file that you programme into the ECU and it will make all the calculations for you. So I could write something like this:
5th gear = True : RPM/44.7=Speed (MPH)
4th gear = True : RPM/58.38= Speed (MPH)
3rd gear = True : RPM/77.85= Speed (MPH)
Ect ect. That means the ECU knows that if RPM divided by 44.7 equals the MPH speed input, then it must be in 5th gear. I'd be able to write in a 'plus' or 'minus' 5mph buffer too incase of slight variation in wheel size or tyre pressures ect but then the ECU knows what gear I'm in. But I don't have enough outputs on mine to allow me to have althat calculation limit boost, although I may be able to remove some unwanted options to write it into the code.
But either way, I'm not sure Emerald would give you the source code to allow you to write something like that in, they may already have something like that in it.
The other mechanical way to do it would be to make a 'H' gate type thing that slides over your gear stick and has contact points that are inputs to your ECU. Then you earth the stick and when it contacts the point on the gate, it earths it out and the ECU knows what gear it's in that way.
But as standard, the only gear to have a switch is the reverse light.
With regards to tyres, I have 235's on et15 wheels. They are too wide to get full lock, but it's the outside that rubs not the inside so if you had an ET25 wheel tht might give you enough clearence. Mine is lowered all the way down on Gaz coilovers too, so if you lifted it up a little you are more likely to get the clearence you need.
Christ, that's a lot of information to take in there and it is all way over my head too. Good to know that there are people out there who know what they are doing and I presume that you have taught yourself all of this? Absolutely quality work mate.
Hopefully I will be able to get something like this sorted so we can limit the boost in the first 2 gears and then just see how it goes I suppose. Thank's for providing us with some different options that we can try, the H type gate sounds pretty cool so maybe we could try that in the future but we will just have to see. I will let the people who know what they are doing handle all of that and then just enjoy the finished article :grin: :grin: . One thing I do know for certain is that this is not an area that I have any knowledge in so probably best left to the experts. But I won't need any extra wheel speed sensors or anything as such will I? Can this all be run off of the ABS sensor?
Whats the benefits of having the 235 tyres on then, do you notice the difference? I am still undecided but I am thinking that wider wheels and tyres may be an item for in the future. Just thinking about getting some super sticky 215's and leaving those on there for now. Spacers should do the trick for reducing the offset of the wheel too.
Hopefully I will be able to get something like this sorted so we can limit the boost in the first 2 gears and then just see how it goes I suppose. Thank's for providing us with some different options that we can try, the H type gate sounds pretty cool so maybe we could try that in the future but we will just have to see. I will let the people who know what they are doing handle all of that and then just enjoy the finished article :grin: :grin: . One thing I do know for certain is that this is not an area that I have any knowledge in so probably best left to the experts. But I won't need any extra wheel speed sensors or anything as such will I? Can this all be run off of the ABS sensor?
Whats the benefits of having the 235 tyres on then, do you notice the difference? I am still undecided but I am thinking that wider wheels and tyres may be an item for in the future. Just thinking about getting some super sticky 215's and leaving those on there for now. Spacers should do the trick for reducing the offset of the wheel too.
PumaNoob
New member
Not sure if you know or if I have the wrong end of the stick, but spacers reduce offset not increase it, so and ET30 wheel with a 15mm spacer becomes an ET15 offset.
The theory behind wheel width is that by increasing the width, you decrease the length of the footprint. So the contact patch is the same. So in theory your 215 sticky tyres will be just as good as my 235's but lighter.
But in practice and my own personal experience, I noticed huge traction advantages switching to wider tyres, with my old tyres the wheels would loose traction a hell of a lot easier then the new. Even with a lot less torque I could spin the wheels in 4th on a damp day. And they are the same tyre, a toyo proxes T1R so perfect for comparison. The way I see it, all the big cars have wide tyres for that very reason. Subaru/Toyota purposely put narrower tyres on the GT86 so it was more fun and easier to break traction, as did mazda with the later MX5's.
But as you mentioned earlier, having more weight over the front wheels will help you put that power down.
Your car will be epic when it's done. Will you be running the engine in on the dyno or on the rd? Any idea how many miles you'll put on it before you tune for power?
The theory behind wheel width is that by increasing the width, you decrease the length of the footprint. So the contact patch is the same. So in theory your 215 sticky tyres will be just as good as my 235's but lighter.
But in practice and my own personal experience, I noticed huge traction advantages switching to wider tyres, with my old tyres the wheels would loose traction a hell of a lot easier then the new. Even with a lot less torque I could spin the wheels in 4th on a damp day. And they are the same tyre, a toyo proxes T1R so perfect for comparison. The way I see it, all the big cars have wide tyres for that very reason. Subaru/Toyota purposely put narrower tyres on the GT86 so it was more fun and easier to break traction, as did mazda with the later MX5's.
But as you mentioned earlier, having more weight over the front wheels will help you put that power down.
Your car will be epic when it's done. Will you be running the engine in on the dyno or on the rd? Any idea how many miles you'll put on it before you tune for power?
Oh yeah I knew that, that's what I meant but perhaps I worded it strangely! My current wheels are ET34 and the FRP are ET28 so going to try a find a small spacer, 5mm maybe, to get as close to the ET28 offset as possible.
I suppose regarding the tyre width and all that nonsense, the proof will be in the pudding as they say. I'm sure the 235's will be a lot better and maybe we will have to look at going down that route in the future but with a different offset to yours, ET25 or something similar. What size wheels do you have, are they 8x17? I'm sure the fat tyres look a lot better too.
Thanks mate, I can't wait to see it done. Probably going to be about 5 weeks or so? Going to be running it in on the road, base map the car, and do 1000 miles to run it all in and change the oil @ 250 miles, 500 miles and 1000 miles. This will be done in a week as I do 1000 miles a week for work! My poor old Mondeo ST TDCi is starting to show the 220,000+ miles a bit now, but she pulls on through! Good old work horse.
After the 1000 miles are up, then we will map the 3 different maps for power:
- Low boost should be aiming for around 300-320 bhp, nice and low for drivability purposes
- Middle boost map I think we will be aiming for between 370-380 bhp? Best of both worlds I suppose
- High boost absolutely f*cking bonkers map will be aiming for between 420-440bhp!! :twisted: Then I will be a part of the 400+ bhp club with you - are there any other Puma's with so much power apart from Warren's?
Limit boost in 1st gear across all 3 maps so it gets limited to about 240-260bhp, limit 2nd gear in middle and high boost maps so it makes about 350-360bhp and then unleash hell in 3rd gear on middle and high boost maps!
Cannot wait :lol:
I suppose regarding the tyre width and all that nonsense, the proof will be in the pudding as they say. I'm sure the 235's will be a lot better and maybe we will have to look at going down that route in the future but with a different offset to yours, ET25 or something similar. What size wheels do you have, are they 8x17? I'm sure the fat tyres look a lot better too.
Thanks mate, I can't wait to see it done. Probably going to be about 5 weeks or so? Going to be running it in on the road, base map the car, and do 1000 miles to run it all in and change the oil @ 250 miles, 500 miles and 1000 miles. This will be done in a week as I do 1000 miles a week for work! My poor old Mondeo ST TDCi is starting to show the 220,000+ miles a bit now, but she pulls on through! Good old work horse.
After the 1000 miles are up, then we will map the 3 different maps for power:
- Low boost should be aiming for around 300-320 bhp, nice and low for drivability purposes
- Middle boost map I think we will be aiming for between 370-380 bhp? Best of both worlds I suppose
- High boost absolutely f*cking bonkers map will be aiming for between 420-440bhp!! :twisted: Then I will be a part of the 400+ bhp club with you - are there any other Puma's with so much power apart from Warren's?
Limit boost in 1st gear across all 3 maps so it gets limited to about 240-260bhp, limit 2nd gear in middle and high boost maps so it makes about 350-360bhp and then unleash hell in 3rd gear on middle and high boost maps!
Cannot wait :lol:
PumaNoob
New member
Warren has sold the 4x4 cosworth puma as far as I'm aware. There is a mk1 focus RS engined puma running I think around 450-500bhp, we saw it at ford fair however I was told the engine sounded in a bad way so I'm not sure if that's still going. There are 2 other pumas with ridiculous power, the Gould Racing puma and there was a carbon bodied puma with a cosworth engine, I think they were in the 800bhp region but not road legal. & there's another racing puma with a cosworth transverse mounted 4wd engine in, I'm not sure what power it run, it's off the rd at the moment.
I'm not sure mine will still be in the 400bhp bracket anymore, I may be just below as I've changed a few things to give me more low down power but it's at the cost of peak bhp. I spoke to Pumabuild on Sat and might get it on their dyno soon! I'll try and get a run for the low boost set up and the high boost set up.
But it will be good to see yours running, we'll have to get them to the drag strip when your done!
I'm not sure mine will still be in the 400bhp bracket anymore, I may be just below as I've changed a few things to give me more low down power but it's at the cost of peak bhp. I spoke to Pumabuild on Sat and might get it on their dyno soon! I'll try and get a run for the low boost set up and the high boost set up.
But it will be good to see yours running, we'll have to get them to the drag strip when your done!
Oh I didn't realise there was so many Fast Puma's out there to contend with. Good to know that you and I aren't the only ones. The carbon boded Puma sounds a bit naughty, would love to see that in the flesh .
Can't believe Warren sold the Cossie Cat?!
What have you done to yours? Or is it a top secret affair? Be good to get it on the dyne and see what it is running. I cannot wait to get my hands on my dyne print outs when they're donek:
And yes that would be interesting. Definitely planning on doing a few drag runs, track days, car shows and road trips in the yea fella when its done. Be nice to see the look on other people's faces when they've been passed on the road by me too!!
Can't believe Warren sold the Cossie Cat?!
What have you done to yours? Or is it a top secret affair? Be good to get it on the dyne and see what it is running. I cannot wait to get my hands on my dyne print outs when they're done
k: And yes that would be interesting. Definitely planning on doing a few drag runs, track days, car shows and road trips in the yea fella when its done. Be nice to see the look on other people's faces when they've been passed on the road by me too!!
PumaNoob
New member
Lol mine is never top secret, anything I do on my car is always in the 'Freedom of information act' :lol: To increase torque and reduce bhp I run a bigger engine (obviously), but a bit less duration and lift on the cams and run the inlet cam a few degrees more advanced. I've tightened the wastegate spring up and reduced ignition timing and increased fuelling from 11.2:1 up to 10.5:1 because higher EGT's have resulted from the increased torque. Plus there was a little head work done on ports, im not sure how that will affect things.
Yeah I only heard about a week ago that Warren sold his Puma, I'm sure he has his reasons, maybe he never got to use it anymore, or just fancied a change. He has a KA now so still in the puma family!!
Yeah I only heard about a week ago that Warren sold his Puma, I'm sure he has his reasons, maybe he never got to use it anymore, or just fancied a change. He has a KA now so still in the puma family!!
All sounds very interesting but please pardon me for newbie knowledge but surely going from 11.2:1 to 10.5:1 would be a decrease in fuelling, not an increase? I'm probably wrong though!
Yes it is a shame to think that it has now gone but as you say, he must have his reasons, lets hope he has something mental planned for the KA!
Yes it is a shame to think that it has now gone but as you say, he must have his reasons, lets hope he has something mental planned for the KA!
PumaNoob
New member
Lol nah, the first number is parts of air, the second is parts of fuel, so the lower the first number, the higher the fuel content. I see where you are coming from though mate.
Right, now I see! Cheers mate, does make sense now.
A question I meant to ask you was, what is the ride like on GAZ coilovers? That is what I am going with and the cut springs have a horrendous ride so wondering what the coilovers are like in comparison?
A question I meant to ask you was, what is the ride like on GAZ coilovers? That is what I am going with and the cut springs have a horrendous ride so wondering what the coilovers are like in comparison?
PumaNoob
New member
I like Gaz because of the damping adjustability, you can set them up almost like a stock set up, and adjusting takes a few mins so I rate them highly. I only have the Gaz GHA, I'd love to try Gaz golds as they are supposed to be better. I find daily driving needs a slightly softer set up then track, and with the Gaz you can fine tune to what suits you best. Although I'm peetty confident you will probably want some heavier springs with your engine, from memory I think the standard puma were around 250lbs, and I found there wasn't enough travel with my 2.0 engine, they compressed too much with the weight of the engine and turbo so there wasn't enough travel left in them. I think my newer springs are around 400lbs and are a lot better, so something like that might suit you better. If you are buying direct from Gaz, tell them your set up and they can adjust the package to suit your car, they are quite helpful like that, & usually at little or no extra cost.
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