280mm

[danielz000]

hi all,

Amongst the many other things I want to do with my puma I'm thinking of upgrading the brakes.

As it stands the brakes on current and previous puma's feel a bit spongy, I noticed this the most when jumping into my brothers Golf and a hired Peugot, both of which hard much more responsive braking and no spongy feeling. can someone confirm if all Puma brakes are like that?

Any way, I'm not really wanted to change my wheels or drill larger holes so was wondering what my options were?

So far the best seems to be to source either the calipers from an mk2 mondeo ST or a fiesta ST150 and then stick 180mm discs on it...

Can someone confirm if it's a straight swap and if there's any other models in the Ford range that I could pinch the calipers from?

Cheers

Dan.

 

[dtq]

If your problem is a spongy pedal rather than brake fade or ineffective braking power then you want braided hoses front and rear, not big calipers. Bigger calipers with a stock master cylinder could actually make things worse! typically fitting bigger brakes you would expect the braking to start happening with the pedal closer to the floor than before! Another thing which can really help is bracig up the area where the servo and mastercylinder sit, the bulk head flexes a lot there, stop that movement and the pedal firms up no end. Ive seen set ups where people have an upper strut brace and add a bit coming from that to the servo to brace it up.

Also well worth renewing the brake fluid in the system, people never bother and it soaks up the water from the atmosphere over time, rapidly decreasing its boiling point and eventually causing premature brake fade. Its supposed to be done every two years I believe.

 

[danielz000]

Ahhh thats excellent information mate! Thanks!

So do the stock brake lines expand whilst braking causing the spongy feeling?

Does the flexing in the bulkhead/servo/mastercylinder area happen when braking? Is it visible to the eye?

Are both these common on the Puma?

I heard about both issues above before but couldn't find much more information on them...

As for the upgrading the calipers/discs, I might still go ahead with that any way (my discs are worn so will need replacing soon).

Am I right about the caliper from a ST mondeo or the ST150 bolting straight on and not needing any modifications?

Edit: Does any one have any pictures of a make shift brace for the braking system? Would be nice to see how the issue has been tackled before...

 

[yippeekiay]

The ST150 yes I believe, think the Mondeo is the old 24v model not the ST though.

 

[danielz000]

The ST150 yes I believe, think the Mondeo is the old 24v model not the ST though.

Just had a look on wikipedia and it seems that there were 3 24v v6 model engines, of which 2 of them were for STs and the other for Ghia and Ghia X.

Gonna have to try and figure out which Mondeo I needs to be from exactly

 

[dtq]

Ahhh thats excellent information mate! Thanks!

So do the stock brake lines expand whilst braking causing the spongy feeling?

Does the flexing in the bulkhead/servo/mastercylinder area happen when braking? Is it visible to the eye?

Are both these common on the Puma?

I heard about both issues above before but couldn't find much more information on them...

As for the upgrading the calipers/discs, I might still go ahead with that any way (my discs are worn so will need replacing soon).

Am I right about the caliper from a ST mondeo or the ST150 bolting straight on and not needing any modifications?

Edit: Does any one have any pictures of a make shift brace for the braking system? Would be nice to see how the issue has been tackled before...

Yep the rubber flexible brake hose between the metal line and caliper \ wheel cylinders bulge under braking causing a spongy brake pedal and apparantly if you get a mate to press the brake pedal hard with the engine running whilst you watch you can see the movement quite clearly. The rubber lines bulging is very common in many cars particularly as they age. As for the bulkhead movement it is commonly reported on puma's. Ive not checked for it yet as Im doing allsorts to the puma, and was going to be bracing everything and binning the original brakes anyway.

ST150 brake calipers I believe bolt straight on.

Mondeo ST \ V6 (all the mk1/2 v6 mondeos used the same calipers) I believe one of the 4wd cosworths used them as well. They all need the carrier bolt holes expanding to fit. Im in the process of carrying out a conversion using Mondeo V6 calipers at the front and Focus ST170 calipers at the rear. Thats because Im rallying and want more braking power and Im boiling the original brakes pretty fast as well.

The rear disks are largelly a matter of ease of servicing, I hate doing work on drums. Im normally quite vocal against peoples assumptions that fast cars "NEED" discs at the back, its purely a marketing device. Road cars rarely "Need" discs at the back.

 

[danielz000]

Mondeo ST \ V6 (all the mk1/2 v6 mondeos used the same calipers) I believe one of the 4wd cosworths used them as well. They all need the carrier bolt holes expanding to fit. Im in the process of carrying out a conversion using Mondeo V6 calipers at the front and Focus ST170 calipers at the rear.

Balls! I thought I read some where that the Mondeo Calipers wouldn't need me to drill/enlarge holes... Have you actually fitted yours yet? Are you 100% sure I'll have to drill holes? If so I guess I better start looking for a set off a ST150

Edit: Looks like the MK2 Mondeo calipers require spacers behind the discs... Might just bite the bullet and go for the MK3 calipers... Didn't really want to drill the holes though, also didn't want to grind the calipers to get it inside my standard (15"?) wheels...

 

[dtq]

Mondeo ST \ V6 (all the mk1/2 v6 mondeos used the same calipers) I believe one of the 4wd cosworths used them as well. They all need the carrier bolt holes expanding to fit. Im in the process of carrying out a conversion using Mondeo V6 calipers at the front and Focus ST170 calipers at the rear.

Balls! I thought I read some where that the Mondeo Calipers wouldn't need me to drill/enlarge holes... Have you actually fitted yours yet? Are you 100% sure I'll have to drill holes? If so I guess I better start looking for a set off a ST150

Edit: Looks like the MK2 Mondeo calipers require spacers behind the discs... Might just bite the bullet and go for the MK3 calipers... Didn't really want to drill the holes though, also didn't want to grind the calipers to get it inside my standard (15"?) wheels...

Mine are Mk2's definetely require holes drilled, mine arent on the car yet but its very clear it needs doing. the spacers arent an issue cost a couple of quid on ebay for the right thickness. Ive had minde blasted, plated, new pistons new seals, and give a coat of rust proof paint. will be spraying them up once I have the bleed nipples. Will go for a shade of metallic grey. I like to keep things low key.

 

[danielz000]

Mine are Mk2's definetely require holes drilled, mine arent on the car yet but its very clear it needs doing. the spacers arent an issue cost a couple of quid on ebay for the right thickness. Ive had minde blasted, plated, new pistons new seals, and give a coat of rust proof paint. will be spraying them up once I have the bleed nipples. Will go for a shade of metallic grey. I like to keep things low key.

Did a fair bit more reading about it and it confirms what you said about enlarging the holes... Are you not worried about drilling them out? I think If I was going to do that I might just be better of getting bigger wheels and sticking the 300mm Mondeo brakes on... What do you think? Finding discs and pads for them in the future would be easier and the calipers probably cheaper...

That said, I could just drill the holes and stick the MK2 280mm discs behind the 15" wheels?

Do you think it's safe drilling the holes? Would the MK2 and MK3 mondeo require the same size holes?

 

[yippeekiay]

I drilled mine out to 13mm when I should have only done them 12.5mm (for the 300mm conversion) but couldn't find a drill to suit. Nevertheless mine have been on for over 2 years now and c30k miles and I have had no problems whatsoever. k:

 

[danielz000]

I drilled mine out to 13mm when I should have only done them 12.5mm (for the 300mm conversion) but couldn't find a drill to suit. Nevertheless mine have been on for over 2 years now and c30k miles and I have had no problems whatsoever. k:

Wow! Doesn't that cause rattling or squeaking? Do you know how big the original hole's are?

Also mate, do you know if the MKII and MKIII are the same size holes?

My missus has put her foot down and is refusing to let me change the wheels so what ever I do, it needs to fit behind the 15" wheels

 

[dtq]

Mine are Mk2's definetely require holes drilled, mine arent on the car yet but its very clear it needs doing. the spacers arent an issue cost a couple of quid on ebay for the right thickness. Ive had minde blasted, plated, new pistons new seals, and give a coat of rust proof paint. will be spraying them up once I have the bleed nipples. Will go for a shade of metallic grey. I like to keep things low key.

Did a fair bit more reading about it and it confirms what you said about enlarging the holes... Are you not worried about drilling them out? I think If I was going to do that I might just be better of getting bigger wheels and sticking the 300mm Mondeo brakes on... What do you think? Finding discs and pads for them in the future would be easier and the calipers probably cheaper...

That said, I could just drill the holes and stick the MK2 280mm discs behind the 15" wheels?

Do you think it's safe drilling the holes? Would the MK2 and MK3 mondeo require the same size holes?

I think original holes are 10mm there's plenty of meat, so no strength issues. It's just widening holes a little. You would have to try hard to make a big mistake. 12.5mm drill bit is likely to give you least fitting hassles.

Some people report 300mm affect acceleration. The extra weight is all rewards exactly where you don't want it on rotating masses.

 

[danielz000]

Some people report 300mm affect acceleration. The extra weight is all rewards exactly where you don't want it on rotating masses.

Luckily I'm not too worried about acceleration... I'd be happy to sacrifice it for increased braking.

Unfortunately getting bigger wheels is a no no from the GF so I guess I'm gonna have to source some ST 280mm calipers

A pair sold on eBay last night for a whooping (in my opinion) £112

 

[yippeekiay]

Original bolts are M10 so the hole was probably around 11mm dia. to start with possibly even 12 dia.
I don't have any rattling with 13mm holes as I tightened up the bolts before driving it....lol.

 

[dtq]

Some people report 300mm affect acceleration. The extra weight is all rewards exactly where you don't want it on rotating masses.

Luckily I'm not too worried about acceleration... I'd be happy to sacrifice it for increased braking.

Unfortunately getting bigger wheels is a no no from the GF so I guess I'm gonna have to source some ST 280mm calipers

A pair sold on eBay last night for a whooping (in my opinion) £112

Think I paid around £50 for my pair of 98-2000 st200 calipers. I believe mk1 and mk2 use different brake pads so make sure you know which is which when you order them. Price vary a lot on there.

 

[danielz000]

Hi All,

Bringing this thread back from the dead as I finally got my hands on a pair of ST calipers. £58 delivered.

Having read ScubaSteve's 300mm upgrade guide I have a question or two...

I'm a bit worried about air in the system. Particularly air from the caliper passing back up the brake lines. Should I be filling the caliper with brake fluid before attaching it or something? Similar story with detaching the brake lines to fit new braided lines. I'm worried about air getting into the lines... Particularly after reading that air making it back to the ABS unit (what ever that is) can't me removed without a trip to Frauds...

Does anyone have a good guide for changing calipers and brake lines? Would it be included in AutoData / TIS / Fiesta Haynes?

Cheers,

Dan

Edit: Would braided HEL brakes lines for a Puma be ok if the car is a Puma and the calipers are from an ST?

 

[ScubaSteve]

you dont need to fill the caliper up just bleed the brakes all round when done

 

[danielz000]

Cheers mate. Will get onto that soon then!