Front subframe alignment pins

[grogee]

Been looking at workshop manual for front subframe replacement (mine has rotted from inside out). It mentions using alignment pins when refitting the subframe.

Can I get away without using these, maybe loosely attach subframe with a couple of bolts and waggle it until it's roughly central? Alternatively does anyone have a set I can borrow - happy to leave a deposit with you until they're returned.

 

[XAF]

You need to align it or you can find the steering is out or you get knocks from the front. The racing-puma.co.uk club have tools to rent out so either drop me a PM or email to [email protected]

 

[YOG]

Subframe, Front, Alignment Pins

• YOG
• Jan 9, 2020

 

[mmc757]

On my cougar (same as mondeo subframe) I use a deep-well socket inserted in the hole for assembly alignment purposes. Then I get a professional alignment done after the work is complete.

 

[grogee]

I can understand why factory and dealers would use alignment pins to make sure it's spot on, but I don't mind it being a little bit out if it can be corrected via tracking.

@mmc757 do you happen to remember what size socket you used to help you align your Mondeo subframe? I am wondering if a suitable deep well 1/2" socket plus a suitable thread bolt (M10? M12?) could be used as an alternative; the bolt could pass through the 1/2" square drive and at least give some coarse alignment while I start tightening some of the mounting bolts.

 

[mmc757]

@mmc757 do you happen to remember what size socket you used to help you align your Mondeo subframe?

I don't, I'm sorry. But don't you already have the subframe removed?
Think about it like a drill bit index...Keep trying sockets until you find the biggest one that still fits in the hole.

 

[YOG]

The kit is also listed as suitable for:
C-MAX / 2003.75 (06/2003-), C-MAX / 2011.0 (04/2010- ), Cougar / 1999 (08/1998-01/2001), Escort/Orion / 1991 (08/1990-09/2001), Fiesta / 1996 (08/1995-02/2002), Fiesta / 2002.25 (11/2001-06/2008), Fiesta / 2008.75 (07/2008- ), Focus / 1999 (08/1998-12/2004), Focus / 2004.75 (07/2004-), Focus RS / 2003 (09/2002-07/2004), Fusion / 2002.75 (06/2002-), Galaxy / 2006.5 (03/2006-), Kuga / 2008.50 (02/2008- ), Mondeo / 1993 (01/1993-07/1996), Mondeo / 1997 (08/1996-09/2000), Mondeo / 2001 (10/2000-02/2007), Mondeo / 2007.5 (02/2007-), Puma / 1998 (06/1997-12/2001), S-MAX / 2006.5 (03/2006-), Tourneo Connect / 2002.5 (06/2002-), Transit / 2000.5 (01/2000-05/2006), Transit / 2006.5 (04/2006-), Transit Connect / 2002.5 (06/2002-)

This is what a Mondeo owner did:
Sub Frame Bolts Mondeo
Get two 22mm half thread bolts, cut them at about 4 inches length, grind the threaded end down to 20mm for about 2 inches, leaving the 22mm shank alone. Try fitting them while you are grinding them for best fit. Bolts now have 22mm solid shaft and 20mm threaded end. When fitting up the front sub frame, do the right hand side (drivers side) first. The LHS sub frame hole is 22mm oval hole. Spray paint the sub frame/bolt/chassis area before removal anyway, Cost....... Bolts £1, Spray can £1.50

 

[grogee]

Thanks. Yes I have replacement frame on stand in garage. I'll just trial fit a few sockets and see what fits.

Having thought about it a bit more... assuming the socket is a snug fit in the subframe mounting hole, the square drive for the socket is 12.7mm across flats. The M12 bolt is just under 12mm diameter. So there's perhaps 0.5mm play around either side of the bolt.

Theoretically if I took the M12 bolt, wrapped it in a couple of layers of insulation tape, and used this in the 'snug' socket as a makeshift alignment tool - that ought to do the trick.

@YOG - thanks for the input but I don't quite understand. Are you saying the vehicles you listed use a 22mm diameter bolt, ie M22?

 

[YOG]

I just copied it. As I understand it, he ground down the threads for approx. 2 inches of length from the thread end to a 22mm diameter. I assume the rest of the bolt was to hold it whilst positioning. If I read it correctly, that means a 22mm socket will fit. I would have thought a slight taper at the beginning of the ground thread would help insertion.

 

[Simonavis]

Where abouts are you?, I have the Sub frame alignment pins.

 

[DOH]

It would be very useful to us all if Simon could measure the diameters of the pins he has and post a photo with useful dimensions. In particular the diameter of the pin that fits into the chassis and length as from reader above it appears to be 12-13mm diameter?

I am confident that a bolt could be modified, but at present there appears to be an error with the Mondeo dimensions above as a bolt with a 22mm head cannot also have a thread size also of 22mm . The thread would probably be 14-16 mm.

I have never seen the alignment pins in the flesh only the Sealeyy drawing at the beginning of the post but I wonder if something in a clutch alignment kit with various diameters would work?

 

[YOG]

...... I am confident that a bolt could be modified, but at present there appears to be an error with the Mondeo dimensions above as a bolt with a 22mm head cannot also have a thread size also of 22mm . The thread would probably be 14-16 mm......

If I understand it correctly, it doesn't say a 22mm head, it says "22mm half thread bolts", "grind the threaded end down to 20mm for about 2 inches, leaving the 22mm shank alone" and, "Bolts now have 22mm solid shaft and 20mm threaded end".

 

[DOH]

Hi Yog
The confusion has arisen because of what you have stated in your post . I have no idea of the dimensions of the pin personally.
From your post dated 13/1/20 @ 2.37pm

If I read it correctly, that means a 22mm socket will fit

Ok though,so you meant fit a 22mm socket over a 22mm threaded bar? Surely that will then have some play in it due to the internal cutouts of the socket to take a bolt head?

Without going under the car I to measure the diameter I cannot be sure though iirc it's a realistic possible size for the hole I have seen.

What would be really useful is to know the diameter of the hole in the chassis , the diameter of the hole in the subframe and the length of the pin required .

I still think that the old school clutch alignment tool with various adaptations to fit flywheel spigot bushes and also the larger diameter adaptors various diameter clutch centre plates may well fit, however if it does will it be practical to use it 1 side at a time as I understand ideally 2 alignment tools would be best?

If there is a suitable size in the clutch alignment kit that would rule out the potential play using the 22mm socket. :thumbs:

 

[YOG]

This has got confused because of misreading the Mondeo post. To clarify, the 22mm socket won't fit the hole, because it has a a larger O/D than 22mm. If you follow the spec that the Mondeo owner said, it's a 22mm shank (not the head) half thread bolt he used. I don't have a problem with alignment, as I have the Sealey Pins.

 

[mmc757]

This thread has gotten ridiculous. I'm sorry I ever mentioned using a socket! :lol: :lol:

 

[YOG]

I thought so, as well. It seemed clear enough to me in the first Mondeo post, a 22mm diameter shank on a bolt would fit in the right hand side hole first, and then fit another in the left hand side oval hole to locate the Sub Frame. So any solid metal rod with a 22mm OD would locate the sub frame, ideally with a taper to help initial insertion.
"Sub Frame Bolts Mondeo
Get two 22mm half thread bolts, cut them at about 4 inches length, grind the threaded end down to 20mm for about 2 inches, leaving the 22mm shank alone. Try fitting them while you are grinding them for best fit. Bolts now have 22mm solid shaft and 20mm threaded end. When fitting up the front sub frame, do the right hand side (drivers side) first. The LHS sub frame hole is 22mm oval hole. Spray paint the sub frame/bolt/chassis area before removal anyway, Cost....... Bolts £1, Spray can £1.50"

If you're near West Sussex (Burgess Hill), you could borrow my Sealey Pins! :wink: :lol:

 

[grogee]

@Simonavis - I'm in Warwickshire, how about you?

Thanks all for the input to the thread, it's good to have these conversations out loud, even if they're initially confusing. I have a subframe on my bench at the moment being painted, I'll measure ID of mounting holes (which I think are all the same for all 6 fixings) and report back. I'll try one of my sockets in there too but we've all got different socket sets so no guarantee your 22mm socket will be same OD as mine (say).

 

[YOG]

Right, I've been out to my freezing cold garage, and found the Sealey VS013 Subframe Location Pins.
In the diagram pic above, I've measured the diameter of 1 VS013/01 Location Pin, as approximately 20.7mm (+/-), with the parallel length being around 27mm. The taper on the lead-in, is much shorter than the diagram (see pic below).

Subframe Location Pin Location Tip

• YOG
• Jan 24, 2020

And yes, I triple-checked the measurements! :lol:

 

[Simonavis]

@Simonavis - I'm in Warwickshire, how about you?

I live in Kent....miles away. I could post them recorded delivery and when you have finished with them return them to me by the same method if that helps.

 

[Simonavis]

It would be very useful to us all if Simon could measure the diameters of the pins he has and post a photo with useful dimensions.

Looks like YOG has beaten me to it.......I can post another picture if you like :grin: