Rally Grouping?

[RS200]

I hate to say this here guys but !!!

Because of the 'very' limited use in motorsport of the Puma, and the shortage of parts,most of which do not interchange with other models used in motorsport a Puma is a very expensive option to play with !

Love your Pumas fine,but rally/race another ford Ka/Fiesta/Escort that parts supply for is easy,plentyfull,and CHEAP ! Then you can enjoy motorsport and your Puma !

:grin:

 

[Flying Scotsman]

I hate to say this here guys but !!!

Because of the 'very' limited use in motorsport of the Puma, and the shortage of parts,most of which do not interchange with other models used in motorsport a Puma is a very expensive option to play with !

Love your Pumas fine,but rally/race another ford Ka/Fiesta/Escort that parts supply for is easy,plentyfull,and CHEAP ! Then you can enjoy motorsport and your Puma !

:grin:

I have to say, all you're going off is money well spent.... have you considered that i don't care about money and that i want to build a Puma rally car, regardless of the cost. Ka's are gay, the fiesta to me is boring and plain to look at and the escorts.... short of being an RS Cosworth.... don't float my boat.

So perhaps it would be 'cheaper' to run another ford.... but i just dont want to.

 

[Dal]

Remember that quite a lot of the Puma is a Fiesta anyway.

 

[RS200]

All more than well understood , but with over 40 yrs in motorsport from Karts to WRC and Rally Raid driving/running/preping/and as a scrutineer then perhaps my perspective differs but I do understand your wish to use a Puma hence why you have so many. Just that for a start it is (as has been said before elsewhere here) more productive to use a car that is ready to teach you.Nothing more or less.Happy to help or advise if needed or wanted any time,and if I dont know then I will more than likely know people who do. :|

 

[Flying Scotsman]

All more than well understood , but with over 40 yrs in motorsport from Karts to WRC and Rally Raid driving/running/preping/and as a scrutineer then perhaps my perspective differs but I do understand your wish to use a Puma hence why you have so many. Just that for a start it is (as has been said before elsewhere here) more productive to use a car that is ready to teach you.Nothing more or less.Happy to help or advise if needed or wanted any time,and if I dont know then I will more than likely know people who do. :|

In what area is you expertise in...
You mentioned scrutineering but what did you do in the 40 years?
Did you drive, manage, mechanic, tyre man...etc?

 

[fatdonger]

Wow i was just a glint in my mothers eye when he started in motorsport.......

 

[Andrew Hebron]

I hate to say this here guys but !!!

Because of the 'very' limited use in motorsport of the Puma, and the shortage of parts,most of which do not interchange with other models used in motorsport a Puma is a very expensive option to play with !

Love your Pumas fine,but rally/race another ford Ka/Fiesta/Escort that parts supply for is easy,plentyfull,and CHEAP ! Then you can enjoy motorsport and your Puma !

:grin:

But most of a Puma is a Fiesta / Ka :? And there are quite a few 1400s knocking around.

I got rid of my 205 because it simply doesn't have the suspension to be competitive anymore although there are parts knocking around (getting scarcer though). What else? The only other option is BMW Challenge E30s. Plenty of parts for Escorts, Evos and Impreza, but that's beyond my budget. Fiesta ST parts are ££ too.

What other choice is there?

 

[RS200]

Well !! start with Karts > Several championships . Then at 17 > Mexico in the old Motoring News Events ( Built it/drove it/bent it ! lol) Then Stage events RS1600/RS1800 the TR7 V8. Then Audi then back to Ford ( quattro ur/ S1 / S2 ) then RS200. Then 'retired with a knackered back' ( road accident not my fault). Always played with Land Rovers etc off road Comp Safari / Trial etc. Latterly involved on the side with 'Old style ' mini on the Monty and on British Rally Championship.Also Evo5/6 Mitsys. Now design and big 4x4 and 6x6 off road race trucks with 1400hp and a Rally Raid car design is in my computer ! Plus I am an M.S.A. Tech Official and have been for 17 years ( Plus a Senior A.C.U. Tech official not that you guys are interested in 2 wheels that much ! lol) ( Except Marcus the Organ doner that is ( Sorry Marcus but a 650cc so soon ????) My fingers are tired now is that enough ? Ah dont ask me about navigating !! Not a clue but I know a man who does ! As for Stuart Turners home and mobile numbers ,yes I have them,no you cant have !lol.

 

[dtq]

Well !! start with Karts > Several championships . Then at 17 > Mexico in the old Motoring News Events ( Built it/drove it/bent it ! lol) Then Stage events RS1600/RS1800 the TR7 V8. Then Audi then back to Ford ( quattro ur/ S1 / S2 ) then RS200. Then 'retired with a knackered back' ( road accident not my fault). Always played with Land Rovers etc off road Comp Safari / Trial etc. Latterly involved on the side with 'Old style ' mini on the Monty and on British Rally Championship.Also Evo5/6 Mitsys. Now design and big 4x4 and 6x6 off road race trucks with 1400hp and a Rally Raid car design is in my computer ! Plus I am an M.S.A. Tech Official and have been for 17 years ( Plus a Senior A.C.U. Tech official not that you guys are interested in 2 wheels that much ! lol) ( Except Marcus the Organ doner that is ( Sorry Marcus but a 650cc so soon ????) My fingers are tired now is that enough ? Ah dont ask me about navigating !! Not a clue but I know a man who does ! As for Stuart Turners home and mobile numbers ,yes I have them,no you cant have !lol.

Thats cool, But what do you base pumas as being too expensive on?

The body panels and headlights are cheap enough secondhand admittedly "new" you pay more than for the fiesta equivalents, but lets face it if you are rallying in a car that costs £700-1500 for the donor car you arent going to be buying new headlights and bumpers everytime you have a bit of a moment :grin:

Even a "puma specific" roll cage actually costs LESS than the Fiesta equivalent for the same year (by about £100 on demon tweeks)

The 1400 and 1600 engines are straight out of the fiesta. The 1700 engine (which is only really suitable for road rallying due to engine capacity classes in stage rallying) is the only engine unique to the puma, the gearbox is IB5 straight out of the fiesta, the back beam is common to fiesta, ka and puma, the front wishbones are used in both Fiesta and puma, the shock absorbers are the same mounting points and directly swappable between ka, fiesta and puma.

Between the Puma that you say not to rally and the Fiesta you recommend the only difference in race trim is the aesthetics. Once you get under the skin they are the same vehicle, even the front panel is the same despite the big differences in front end looks between the fiesta and puma they share the same platform. The puma in road trim comes with bigger wheels and stiffer suspension and a shorter throw gearshift shift linkage,... But none of that matters once you get it ready to rally. Even in weight theres next to nothing between the puma and a fiesta of the similiar trim and spec.

I may never have done things the "works" way but Ive built more than my fair share of rally cars and cant really see a good arguement for fiesta over puma for people on a budget. Im only road rallying these days, I replaced my KA (which you recommend) with the puma and havent regretted it for a second. Ive never once wished I went for a fiesta. If I was going staging again I would happily build up a puma over a fiesta. For me the Puma has more scope to widen track under the standard body panels which gives it an edge.

 

[RS200]

Agreed dtq , BUT parts for Puma are not as readily available and cost more,but if thats what people want fine , just suggesting a softly start. A set of tyres for my Audi is almost 1k and would last 2/3 stages max on tar,less on the loose !

Second hand parts are fine , just trying to suggest a grass roots way in. :?

Cant remember who or where someone asked about hyd handbrakes but here it is from the M.S.A. k:


Release MSA10-008: 29 January 2010





Hydraulic Handbrakes

Following our advice published in the March newsletter, reprinted below, it has come to light that certain WRC and other
homologated vehicles were not supplied with a mechanical hand brake linkage when new. This does not exempt such
vehicles from the requirements of the Construction and Use Regulations and thus to meet the requirements of the Road
Traffic act a mechanical linkage must be fitted.



Construction and use regulations require a Parking Brake or “Hand Brake” to be capable of being maintained in
operation by direct mechanical action only. Therefore Stage Rally and Road Rally Cars fitting with a hydraulic
handbrake must also have a working, and independent, mechanical linkage to comply with construction and use. We
recently heard from a scrutineer presented with a hydraulic handbrake, cables were also present however, on
investigation they were found not to be connected to anything. The competitor arguing that he complied as a
mechanical linkage was present! It is not good enough to have cables not attached to anything! To comply with
construction and use the mechanical linkage must be operational and work independently of the hydraulic system.

Motor Sports Association, Motor Sports House, Riverside Park, Colnbrook, SL3 0HG






MSA SCRUTINEERS E-BULLETIN #54


From the horses mouth !

 

[dtq]

Agreed dtq , BUT parts for Puma are not as readily available and cost more,but if thats what people want fine , just suggesting a softly start. A set of tyres for my Audi is almost 1k and would last 2/3 stages max on tar,less on the loose !

Second hand parts are fine , just trying to suggest a grass roots way in. :?

Its only body panels though and its not that bad yet - and shouldnt be for at least another 5 years.

Cant remember who or where someone asked about hyd handbrakes but here it is from the M.S.A. k:


Release MSA10-008: 29 January 2010





Hydraulic Handbrakes

Following our advice published in the March newsletter, reprinted below, it has come to light that certain WRC and other
homologated vehicles were not supplied with a mechanical hand brake linkage when new. This does not exempt such
vehicles from the requirements of the Construction and Use Regulations and thus to meet the requirements of the Road
Traffic act a mechanical linkage must be fitted.



Construction and use regulations require a Parking Brake or “Hand Brake” to be capable of being maintained in
operation by direct mechanical action only. Therefore Stage Rally and Road Rally Cars fitting with a hydraulic
handbrake must also have a working, and independent, mechanical linkage to comply with construction and use. We
recently heard from a scrutineer presented with a hydraulic handbrake, cables were also present however, on
investigation they were found not to be connected to anything. The competitor arguing that he complied as a
mechanical linkage was present! It is not good enough to have cables not attached to anything! To comply with
construction and use the mechanical linkage must be operational and work independently of the hydraulic system.

Motor Sports Association, Motor Sports House, Riverside Park, Colnbrook, SL3 0HG






MSA SCRUTINEERS E-BULLETIN #54


From the horses mouth !

It was me who asked one of the guys about a picture of his ex ford recce card, as I noticed it didnt have a mechanical handbrake and really should have. I know for many many years people have been getting by with a nudge and a wink with hydraulic but no mechanical handbrakes. Ive always thought it was "bending the rules" a bit... Hence on my car Ive got a system designed which will have both hydraulic and mechanical, yes I know MOT testers that rally and would let it through, but Id still rather be on the right side of the rules. I wonder how much of a shake up this guidance is causing , Its been happening for YEARS that competitors have got away with just hydraulic handbrakes. many rare disc conversions dont allow for mechanical linkages at all

 

[RS200]

Metro 6R4 never had one ! But now to be legal they fit Jaguar XJ 220 rear calipers with the handbrake bits. Some models of V.W. rear caliper have a mechanical and hydraulic fitting in one unit for discs !

Well all I would say is what would you want 1/ Knowing your car is legal / ok to compete before you go to an event or 2/ Getting kicked out if the scrutineer you have knows his job ? :?

 

[dtq]

Metro 6R4 never had one ! But now to be legal they fit Jaguar XJ 220 rear calipers with the handbrake bits. Some models of V.W. rear caliper have a mechanical and hydraulic fitting in one unit for discs !

Well all I would say is what would you want 1/ Knowing your car is legal / ok to compete before you go to an event or 2/ Getting kicked out if the scrutineer you have knows his job ? :?

I quite agree, hence for my car Ive got st170 calipers to go on the back - They have both mechanical linkage and hydraulic operation the same as for the regular focus rear discs and the FRP. They meet construction and use regs as part of a production car and the hydraulic handbrake will be in addition to and running from a seperate lever to the mechanical linkage which wil run to the original puma mechanical handbrake lever.

Admittedly the Ford disc braked handbrakes are infamous for their ability to lose grip as the brakes cool back down if theyve been heated, but they fulfill all legal requirements and the cooling issue can be overcame by depressing the foot brakes hard then applying the handbrake with the brake pedal still depressed. At least according to Ford. Ive known it happen twice since my boss bought his focus in 1998.

 

[RS200]

Vented or cross drilled disc time perhaps ?????

 

[RS200]

Silly person ! Go look at your RS200 in the garage it has a FORD badge on it ! OOPs my mistake its me not you that has one,never mind go look at some pics ! lol

 

[fatdonger]

Wish I had an RS200 in my garage

But I wouldn't be driving it because the BDT engine needs to be rebuilt after 1500 miles or is that just a rumor?
It would be there to look at lol

 

[RS200]

Not quite that bad in road tune,but not far off !
Tranny and diffs take more harm ! Set it to full go ( 650 BHP ish) and it wont last long ! Its a pig to drive though ( as is any comp car on the road).

 

[fatdonger]

I heard at full tilt they were talking about 30 hours running?

 

[RS200]

And how did they do the rallys they did over 4/5 days ?

Think about it,plus you never ever run at 100% all the time ( no matter how good you think you are !)

Mine runs once a month and has a drive at the same time , keeps everything 'happy'.

 

[fatdonger]

Seems the development of the engine was originally for the escort rs programme that got canned ...
Isn't the BDT a BDA derivative - which is based on the corssflow block but is alloy?

I also heard the engine was very fussy about temp hence having to run below 2500 rpm before the engine was warm as the engine oil pressure in the engine when cold was very high.......